NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

I can’t get my head around LN putting herself forward to be a witness at a very public tribunal over some offensive jokes shared in a private group, when in the same group she’d encouraged the jokes, shared patient information and not called out the jokes or left the group. Why would anyone put themselves in that position? If the jokes were shared in a public forum or were about specific members of staff I could more easily understand her coming forward as a witness, or if the tribunal was about racism it would make more sense but she seems to have put herself in the firing line purely out of spite.

@Binglebong but how does that compare to a hospital in say Lanarkshire or Stirling or somewhere?

Excellent post, thank you.

But SP has already been trajuced in the court of public opinion - the media, especially the BBC, have reported all sorts of allegations against her against her.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to speculate that all this third and fourth hand hearsay we've been getting about SP's racism comes from one or more people on the group chat gossiping that "I know her well and can tell you what she's really like"

And I know what these WhatsApps are like, they're all people who've known each other for years, worked together in stressful situations, gone on holiday together. I'm sure all of them, not just SP, thought this was a safe space where you could let your hair down with your friends.

So much for that. But nobody seems to have thought that without the messages it's only vague hearsay. And if the whole chat comes out, not just a few carefully redacted bits, then they're all fucked.

Which makes LN look stupid as well as vindictive.

It's just a word from a time that has stuck and hasn't given it any thought

Sorry, but I think this is rubbish.

I am oldish and working class. Grew up in the 70s when the p word was widely used. I knew long before I was an adult that it was racist. Same with the N word.

Anyone who uses that word now, in 2025, is definitely a racist.

I haven't read it because it is behind a paywall but there is a Courier article suggesting that A&E in Fife is about the worst in Scotland

Because "guys" is masculine. You may believe it's inclusive of everyone, but if you said "girls" or "ladies" to include men or an all male group, it would be a joke or an insult.

It defaults to the dominant male and it's lazy and unthinking about the group being referred to.

I think as women we can refer to ourselves as girls or ladies in the context of informality.

Only just managed to catch up on the threads from this morning but I agree with this.

Today looked to be an utterly unedifying spectacle. A poster on the previous thread mentioned that SP was no longer a great poster child for SSS but I think I disagree on this.

I see some parallels here with TRAs and their reasoning for starting with prisons. If SP wins her claim despite all the mud being slung and the mud that has stuck then it paves the way for all women to bring successful claims over SSS.

If Fife don't win after getting so down in the mud with this case that would be a stark warning to other employers that women's legal rights are just that and how lovely or unpleasant a woman's character is, is irrelevant to the matter.

I'm the same. If there's a cubicle, I'll use it rather than the group changing room. I have scars and things that I don't like all and sundry seeing.

It’s out of the TRA’s playbook; to smear women standing up for their rights as having right wing links and therefore their arguments are to be ignored.

Please can one of the legal bods help?

My understanding is that this is only partially about SSS. Yes it started there but primarily it is about her treatment afterwards and how much of a stitch up it was. To my mind the SSS is almost a red herring as that's not what the tribunal will rule on. Even if it was decided that she was not entitled to SSS she could still win because of their actions afterwards.

Is that right? I am trying to not get too het up over the changing room aspect.

Thanks in advance.

She had it in for SP, that much was obvious, it’s some sort of vendetta. These zealots forget all semblance of sanity when they need to burnish their credentials as chief handmaiden, they’ve all been jockeying for the top spot since this tribunal started. Their sort of bigotry can’t be as bad as SP’s because they are ALLIES to the good doctor, they’ve are special to him. The sad thing is that Upton almost certainly despises them all, he’ll manipulate them for his own ends and then discard them without a backward glance.

This was the latest I could find, sorry.

During March 2023:

There were 128,482 attendances at A&E services in Scotland.

68% of attendances at A&E services were seen and resulted in a subsequent admission, transfer or discharge within 4 hours.
14,419 (11.6%) patients spent more than 8 hours in an A&E department.
6,094 (4.9%) patients spent more than 12 hours in an A&E department.
24.9% of attendances led to an admission to hospital.

On SP's jokes and racism.
Different people are different. LN's testimony today where NC brought out that LN thought SP should be struck off is an example of one person judging another person and deciding they need to be punished. It seems to be a common theme of these tribunals where someone judges another person to be a bigot that needs to be punished, and then all fairness and procedure gets thrown out of the window as they gleefully build the bonfire ready to burn the witch.
What SP said was wrong but in my lifetime I've said and done many stupid things, all my friends have also said very stupid things, even the ones who now think they are virtuous angels.
If from seven years of private chats that's all the very worst of SP, a woman who's worked for 30 years to make the lives of patients better maybe just maybe she's not all entirely made from evil bigot goo, the very worst of the worst. While I think was SP said in the WhatsApp was wrong I'm in no position myself to judge her entire life. If some of you gals and guys have made anywhere near as many mistakes in your lives as I have in mine, then maybe you too might be in the trying to do better boat too.
I don't like that to some degree here there seems to be a desire to judge SP's entire life on the basis of some stupid racist jokes, especially when that mentality seems to be the source of so many of these tribunals, people rushing to judge others, an assumed permission to savour being a judge and jury over another, understanding be damned.
I think the jokes were racist, I bet SP feels very embarassed, especially with all the press coverage, but I am in no position to judge SP.

I think there’s been a small element of hero worship of SP and the people who have sent her cards etc are likely to be feeling disappointed.

But she hasn’t claimed to be perfect or to have never done or said anything bad or stupid, never to have made a mistake. And it’s not over yet - she’ll say her piece tomorrow and maybe that will change things. At the very least i’m sure she will apologise for any offence caused.

I still stand with Sandy Peggie.

There's something very weird about DU's harem of enabling women, but my take on LN is that she doesn't really give a stuff about trans and is just motivated by personal resentment. I think she saw SP getting all this attention, and maybe a big payout, and couldn't resist throwing a spanner in the works.

I can't get over her being stupid enough not to think it would blow up in her face, but some fowk hivnae an oonce.

Someone may be able to make sense of this, I think it may have more info. Not 100% sure as there is a lot i don't understand and being on a mobile really isn't helping!

https://www.opendata.nhs.scot/dataset/monthly-accident-and-emergency-activity-and-waiting-times

I have been following avidly and I’m pretty gutted tbh. It’s not that I think that SP should have to be perfect - actually she really shouldn’t have to be! But I’m so sick of the prevailing narrative that being gender critical makes one a bigot. This feels like a big step backwards because it is so high profile. Ugh ugh ugh.

I’m not sure if I picked this up correctly, but did LN actually name a patient on the group chat?
If so, that’s appalling and a reminder to everyone that any one of us could be that patient.
NHSF sounds like an utter shitshow of an environment to work in.
Toxic, nasty and back stabbing…you couldn’t get me to work there for a million a year salary.

Just catching up as. I’ve been out in the real world today.
Am reflecting and a few points to make:-

1. The WhatsApp group chat is made up of women who SP believes are friends. they have bonded at work, but have become friends, have lunch together and go on holiday together. Those comments about not trusting work colleagues are perfectly valid, but they have moved far from a professional relationship. It is really common within emergency services for this to happen when you work shifts that your social circle become work friends and I would suggest they all live locally too.
2. JR has introduced these witnesses to strengthen the case about SP being transphobic as well as muddying the water about being a racist as well. I personally think this has backfired on her in terms of the tribunal. The evidence from today is likely to be discounted and it doesn’t demonstrate that NHS Fife haven’t discriminated against SP, which is the aim of the game.
3. Public opinion in terms of today’s revelations - Terfs will think as most of us do that she is still entitled to Sss. TRA will still think that Terfs are all racist and homophobic. General public are still shifting towards TWANW. Biggest reputational damage is NHS Fife. These messages must have gone through the legal dept and for them not to consider NMC referrals is outrageous for the whole group.
4. The WhatsApp group - depends on what their code of ethics say but in most other public sector there would be ramifications, as there rightly should be. I would imagine SP is fully aware of the implications of this material being served in evidence and has taken a gamble on it.
5. There is no evidence of homophobia from what I’ve read today. Sp has asked a friend LN about having a gay child. As others have said this is a process to come to terms things being outwith the “norm.” Would any of us genuinely not do the same with one of our close friends….
6. There isn’t evidence of transphobia in here either from SP. She may have said a couple of direct facts about hair and voice which are not in dispute.

excuse my ramblings am trying to think about the evidential aspect of today w

BBC have gone with a headline about “posting bacon”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpqvz1rgdr5o.amp

Yes she did. It needs to be reported as a GDPR breach. She should also be reported to her professional body.

My understanding is that part of SP's claim is sexual harassment from a man being g in the female changing room. Which is why DU's sex matters.

If you've given a laugh emoji to these offensive jokes, and you've breached patient confidentiality, it's pretty wild if being publicly in favour of men in women's changing rooms is what redeems you.