NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

I have a chest infection and I'm delighted 😂

Anyone know how many more days are planned? I think I saw the Herald say it would go on til 30 July.
How much time is needed for closing statements?
There seem to be a lot of witnesses to get through yet.

Big Sond glares doon at his Bingo Caird. Somebody's stitched him right up. Third day in the row wi nae square saying 'Pete The Plumber'.

Crying with laughter at this comment.

This song is going to be in my head for the next month

My soup (home-made mixed veg, not just celery) was very nice, btw, on the first cold day in ages.

they can’t even stitch up their own colleagues without making a fist of it

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

How utterly ridiculous of Searle to claim she doesn't know how observation of sex at birth happens. Her medical training will have required her to observe labour and birth and probably deliver a number of babies.

This is what a total collapse of moral clarity and courage among the professional classes looks like.

Am I right in my thinking that the issue with the email was that they had been fiddled with in order to change the order of them, and this was done to hide the fact that the 6 people copied in were conniving before the investigation took place? And also, that there are documents missing that tie all the disclosed emails in the chain (that was presented as two different chains but NC is saying was one chain) together? I am a bit befuddled.

Honestly, I'm not being funny, but - read any bit of it and there'll be something jaw-droppingly WTF from Fife!

Yes @MrsOvertonsWindow but, is he a strong or powerful man? Slimy and manipulative probably yes. Did he face strong opposition? IMO he did not because he was only up against one nurse and he had the organisations culture on his side.
We shall see his true strength if he becomes a successful doctor.

No I don’t think so!!!
I hope NC is going to mention in closing statements EVERYONE (including JR and J) used “he”

Being whacked with the shitty stick ?

Perhaps that is partly what the judge is going to be trying to clear up before the open session tomorrow morning.

presumably as a good "inclusive" gernderist KS would be (self) constricted from saying "women give birth".

NHS Fife think people with DSDs have both male and female gentialia though...

One of the things that stands out to me is that if six people colluded to conceal a chain of emails from the tribunal, this is possibly the biggest multidisciplinary consensus within the NHS since its inception.

I just looked it up, 😂

"Doctorow argued that "'enshittification' is coming for absolutely everything" with "enshittificatory" platforms leaving humanity in an "enshittocene".

This is a Dr I can agree with.

"Beth has every right to use the facilities she wants under the GRA."

Was Searle implying that Upton has a GRC?

@Tandora sorry I have had meetings most of the day so I couldn't follow up this morning but could you confirm whether 'good' women are deserving of single sex spaces please?

Let's use my dear sadly no longer with us maiden Aunt as an example. She voted Labour, was active in the TU movement, campaigned for gay rights, never had a racist thought in her life and used to buy school shoes and the Christmas turkey for a totally unrelated neighbouring family because she could and they were struggling.

She as one of a family of only girls who's father died when she was tiny and who never married she hadn't seen a human penis in her whole life. Should she have stayed in the changing room with a TW so as not to make him sad or because no-one heard that someone else said that they thought that the neighbours hairdresser said she was racist was she deserving of a single sex changing room?

Some reading for you.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28033665/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4441533/

"The genetic causes for around 70% of DSDs affecting gonadal development are still unknown."
Further

"there have been great advances over the last century. Our conception of gender identity has evolved from our initial belief in the predominant influence of upbringing and social influences on gender identity development to the appreciation of a more complex psychosexual developmental process involving androgen imprinting."

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4441533/

Ie.. KS response "I'm not an expert" is a classic get out of jail free card/I don't want to answer the question. It's dishonest and slippery.

I can't imagine Kate helping a woman give birth in an emergency car park or on a flight, the woman asking is it a boy or a girl and her saying "I'm not an expert, sorry!".

It's nothing to do with intersex. Dr. Upton has claimed they think doctors make a kind of best guess of sex at birth and most others don't want to get involved in contradicting that.

An actual honest answer would be something like "usually doctors determine the sex of babies by external genitalia".

Sorry if this has already been discussed somewhere but what does "engage" actually mean in this context?

How do you "engage" in a changing room? Does it just mean chit chat and pleasantries? Why the big emphasis on "engaging"? Or lack of it?

I used to work with a woman I disliked, the feeling was mutual. We both had to get changed in the toilets, we both totally ignored each other. We did not "engage" in any way. It's just how it was.

Toad in the Hole followed by Spotted Dick perhaps?

Skewered chicken here. I submit this is Apropos.

You can’t have such a thing as disorders of sexual development, if sex is a nebulous dog whistle.

The existence of DSDs are evidence that not only is sex real and material, but also that it is binary.