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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

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29
BeLemonNow · 22/07/2025 16:23

RobinEllacotStrike · 22/07/2025 16:21

Its Taco Tuesday - dinner problems solved

Eeek now I fancy some (vegetarian) tacos. But cannot be bothered to go to the shops. New dinner dilemma.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 22/07/2025 16:23

So dr Upton wanted to help write policies that would say that refusing to undress in front of him is bad behaviour, according to NC?!

snickersbarchild · 22/07/2025 16:23

Appalonia · 22/07/2025 16:20

Again, her testimony reminds me of that song;

" Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology " 😂

Don't know much about audit trail
Don't know much about how Fife's failed

Jitrenka · 22/07/2025 16:24

Greyskybluesky · 22/07/2025 16:16

This case will have done wonders to educate people who don't know much about this ideology.

The fact is, it could have taken place almost anywhere. But it's not just anywhere. It's a HOSPITAL. With educated people who have medical training. And those people are saying they don't know how sex works.

Aside from SP's claim (go Sandie!) the sunlight she has brought is IMMENSE

yeah but i always think This is going to be the thing that wakes people up! And then no one seems to notice.. i mean they get men cant become women and vice versa but they havent realised how its corrupted institutions they trust.

Pluvia · 22/07/2025 16:24

GreenFriedTomato · 22/07/2025 16:10

Well Searle is as arrogant as I expected..

You can't prove it!

But of a stupid thing to a barrister who has clearly unearthed your hidden emails. I highly suspect she can PROVE it and that's where the IT guy will come in. What an obnoxious transmaiden she is

How silly is she going to look to all the sane consultants in the UK.

Are there many sane consultants in the UK? I'm just one person but I have known — at one time been on friendly terms — with four doctors, three of whom are full-on TRAs like Kay Searle (one has even specialised in gender medicine) and one of whom has contemplated transition herself and may, for all I know, have had top surgery and be on T. I know only two doctors who are openly GC and they seem to think that they are the only two in their departments and have felt compelled to hide their beliefs as a result.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 22/07/2025 16:24

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 16:10

Its impossible.

It is like trying to nod your head and say no and then shake your head and say yes. You eventually get it wrong because its impossible.

The reverse isn't.

Actually I find it impossible to use any set of pronouns consistently when there are other cues messing me up - such as someone else using the other pronouns. But other things too, like a person's appearence. And it works both ways, I find it impossible to call someone named Katie "he" all the time even if I know Katie's a bloke. The name trips me up. I'm Ok typing online but speaking, no chance. And under stress I'd be all over the place.

So I think Naomi Cunningham's consistent use of sex-based language is a superpower in itself. So was Nicola Sturgeon's totally pronoun-free speech about Isla Bryson - maybe less so because that was totally prepared and rehearsed but even so I couldn't have done it.

snickersbarchild · 22/07/2025 16:24

BeLemonNow · 22/07/2025 16:23

Eeek now I fancy some (vegetarian) tacos. But cannot be bothered to go to the shops. New dinner dilemma.

Spuds in the airfryer. Cheese and onion. Side salad. Bish, bash, bosh.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 22/07/2025 16:25

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 16:22

I think NC is having mincemeat...

😂😂I think KS must be having oxygen.

FeedbackProvider · 22/07/2025 16:26

I don’t know if legally it was more effective, but I found it emotionally more effective that NC asked the witness to consider and then state what kinds of situations might make women uncomfortable changing in front of men (rather than providing the answers as she did on previous days). Maybe just because I want KS to see the light and truly understand that what she did was truly unfair, unkind, and lacking in empathy for SP. The pauses from KS suggest that there’s a glimmer of hope.

snickersbarchild · 22/07/2025 16:26

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 22/07/2025 16:24

Actually I find it impossible to use any set of pronouns consistently when there are other cues messing me up - such as someone else using the other pronouns. But other things too, like a person's appearence. And it works both ways, I find it impossible to call someone named Katie "he" all the time even if I know Katie's a bloke. The name trips me up. I'm Ok typing online but speaking, no chance. And under stress I'd be all over the place.

So I think Naomi Cunningham's consistent use of sex-based language is a superpower in itself. So was Nicola Sturgeon's totally pronoun-free speech about Isla Bryson - maybe less so because that was totally prepared and rehearsed but even so I couldn't have done it.

I also think it's also because someone else using reality based language, and particularly someone of NC's calibre can make the whole illusion disappear. It's the lifting of the curtain to find the the Wizard of Oz.

Bubblegumicecreamm · 22/07/2025 16:26

Thank you to everyone replying with links and where to find it. Can’t believe I hadn’t heard a word about this until the last mumsnet thread.

Have only read the last two threads. Want to go back and read to understand better, can anyone recommend which bits to go back and catch up on please?

Charabanc · 22/07/2025 16:26

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 16:22

I think NC is having mincemeat...

One would hope that KS will be having humble pie, but she won't be...

MyrtleLion · 22/07/2025 16:26

BezMills · 22/07/2025 16:17

When KS repeatedly said 'I'm not an expert' on basic facts of biology that she quite clearly is an expert on, I think it speaks to the older generation (a whole generation older than team blue hair, the current 15-30s) being completely bamboozled by culture that has seemingly moved on without them. They/we are afraid to be seen as a horrible person, and know that there's things we can say that would make us seem that way. So it's natural to just abdicate all responsibility and say 'I'm no expert on this' with the implication being, you'd need to ask your 15yo niece first.

I mean this is basic facts about biology, not trying to set some 1980s VCR with a badly translated manual to record the boxing at 2am (in which case, definitely ask a 10yo for advice).

I doubt today’s 10 year olds would even know what a VCR is, let alone programme one.

Maybe ask a 50 year old who was 10 in 1985?

Raquelos · 22/07/2025 16:26

Question: If NC establishes that there has been a deliberate non-disclosure of emails, what recourse is available? I'm fantasising about a forced external audit of all the involved NHSF parties' emails, with them being made to acknowledge every single shitty thing they have ever communicated about Sandie, but perhaps I am being unrealistic😁

GreenFriedTomato · 22/07/2025 16:26

Jitrenka · 22/07/2025 16:12

Beth felt uncomfirtable that SP didnt want to engage...she was the only one behaving like this - behaving is a terrible way to put it.. i think KS is goosed!!

In hospitals I've worked in there were always practicing Muslim female staff. I expect Fife won't be any different. I highly doubt any of these women would believe TWAW or share a changing room with a biological male.
They probably wouldn't complain, they'd probably just change elsewhere.

As for 'engaging'. That was rather telling. Not only was Sandie supposed to accept his presence, she was also expected to engage with him. Participate in whatever Upton was wanting/doing.

Merrymouse · 22/07/2025 16:26

Tandora · 22/07/2025 16:16

Perhaps because it's not always true.

Some people have DSDs. If NHS Fife believes that the number of people with DSDs is so high that they can't reliably determine sex in their patients, then they are criminally negligent if they don't check their patients chromosomes.

It is far more likely that their opinion is that compared to other physical conditions and characteristics sex can be reliably judged without testing.

RobinEllacotStrike · 22/07/2025 16:27

snickersbarchild · 22/07/2025 16:23

Don't know much about audit trail
Don't know much about how Fife's failed

Don't know much about audit trail
Don't know much about how Fife's failed

But I do know that chick's a dude
And I know he wants to see my boobs

What a laddies changing room this turned out to be

Rhaidimiddim · 22/07/2025 16:27

Boiledbeetle · 22/07/2025 16:02

Again proving that under pressure no one can keep it up.

Or possibly - realising DU had lied about what KS had said, KS's concern for his hurty feelings evaporated.

IKeepMyToasterInTheCupboard · 22/07/2025 16:27

Appalonia · 22/07/2025 16:20

Again, her testimony reminds me of that song;

" Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology " 😂

...don't know anything about IT... or law...

Lins77 · 22/07/2025 16:27

It's a long time ago, but I'm pretty sure I knew I was a girl long before I ever clapped eyes on my birth certificate.

LadyElaine · 22/07/2025 16:28

BeLemonNow · 22/07/2025 16:11

When the tribunal ends for the day, I'd be grateful for any observers' thoughts on Kate Searle's presentation.

Slow over rate is a bit of an issue in these tribunals.

My overall observation is that KS's confidence diminished markedly throughout NC's questioning.

When NC started down the path of how it was hard to understand how of the six people on a crucial thread, none of them had disclosed it and how not disclosing would be dishonest, her manner changed to being more shirty. Her movements became more jerky, her head moving in a choppy, exaggerated way. Several times when she was making a point, she was furiously shaking her head "no." Flinging her shoulders about, her flailing arms following.

Then, when NC started making the point about her empathy not extending to SP or indeed any woman who felt uncomfortable getting undressed in front of a man, she hesitated in a way that made me wonder if she had ever thought of this side of the argument.

Quite a few uncomfortably long silences before her responses.

JR in the background not looking terribly energetic.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 22/07/2025 16:28

@Harassedevictee The J said "I've got to do something tomorrow", before suggesting 11.30 for KS. Which sounds more as though he will be considering today's private case conference overnight and making any Orders tomorrow?

In general, as an observer, that was slow, tense and felt like someone was dying. The lack of interruption was very noticeable. Also the tone of everyone seemed hushed.

Do you remember the way the interruptions and Judge's replies were quite jaunty in February? And J was at times critical of the length of examination?? The Judge had a much more conciliatory tone this afternooon, asking both sides whether timescales for remaining witnesses were realistic, and then saying its noones fault, it's just where we are.

The closing discussions felt like when something terrible happens and everyone puts stuff aside for a short while. Except he didn't at any point try to rescue KS as he seemed to do with ED in Feb. It felt as though everyone was watching a body bleeding out and there was nothing could be done except talk quietly and as nicely as possible.

KS sounded at times like a confident Consultant taking charge of ward round. And then increasingly towards the end she was quiet, talking very slowly, pausing a lot. I think she must have known that the processes she and others led had been unfair, but it seemed as though this may be the first time she has considered it from Sandie Peggie's perspective.

viques · 22/07/2025 16:28

One thing I am taking away from this debacle is that if ever I am in the Fife area and need stitching I will avoid the Victoria Hospital, they can’t even stitch up their own colleagues without making a fist of it, there is no way I am going anywhere near one of their consultants wielding a needle and thread.

I will just wrap leaves around my wound and hope for the best. ( or ask if Sandie is on duty……)

Merrymouse · 22/07/2025 16:28

Rhaidimiddim · 22/07/2025 16:27

Or possibly - realising DU had lied about what KS had said, KS's concern for his hurty feelings evaporated.

What is the suggested discrepancy?

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 22/07/2025 16:29

Llamasarellovely · 22/07/2025 16:22

I hesitate to go with The Fife Touch because this actually isn't won yet. I can't see SP losing, but every barrister has won cases they shouldn't and lost cases they shouldn't, it's not over yet.

Like The Bad Touch?

You and me baby, ain't nothing but mammals
But I'm not an expert on sex, maybe I need to watch the Discovery Channel? 😂

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