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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

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29
RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 16:38

Tandora · 22/07/2025 16:36

Some reading for you.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28033665/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4441533/

"The genetic causes for around 70% of DSDs affecting gonadal development are still unknown."
Further

"there have been great advances over the last century. Our conception of gender identity has evolved from our initial belief in the predominant influence of upbringing and social influences on gender identity development to the appreciation of a more complex psychosexual developmental process involving androgen imprinting."

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4441533/

Edited

Could you do us a favour, and instead of posting on here, could you post the info to Fife as I think they need it more than us here please?

Ta muchly.

MagicSexEssence · 22/07/2025 16:38

I feel quite uneasy for KS. The comment about NC not being able to prove anything re the "missing" emails, the denial of any lying because she's a trustworthy doctor. I do hope she's telling the truth.

BezMills · 22/07/2025 16:38

MyrtleLion · 22/07/2025 16:26

I doubt today’s 10 year olds would even know what a VCR is, let alone programme one.

Maybe ask a 50 year old who was 10 in 1985?

Yes to be fair I was thinking back 1985 and being the only one who understood the VCR, as a situation where it was the best choice to just ask a kid. Today's example would maybe be using a VPN to watch US Netflix. Get a teenager.

Lins77 · 22/07/2025 16:39

In other news, NHS Fife's informative page on intersex, etc, is still there to enlighten the baffled public.

Merrymouse · 22/07/2025 16:39

PrinceYakimov · 22/07/2025 16:31

How utterly ridiculous of Searle to claim she doesn't know how observation of sex at birth happens. Her medical training will have required her to observe labour and birth and probably deliver a number of babies.

This is what a total collapse of moral clarity and courage among the professional classes looks like.

And also, as a pp pointed out, as an A&E doctor she will sometimes deal with patients who aren't in a state to communicate their sex, and she will have to come to a conclusion herself.

Jitrenka · 22/07/2025 16:40

NebulousSupportPostcard · 22/07/2025 16:28

@Harassedevictee The J said "I've got to do something tomorrow", before suggesting 11.30 for KS. Which sounds more as though he will be considering today's private case conference overnight and making any Orders tomorrow?

In general, as an observer, that was slow, tense and felt like someone was dying. The lack of interruption was very noticeable. Also the tone of everyone seemed hushed.

Do you remember the way the interruptions and Judge's replies were quite jaunty in February? And J was at times critical of the length of examination?? The Judge had a much more conciliatory tone this afternooon, asking both sides whether timescales for remaining witnesses were realistic, and then saying its noones fault, it's just where we are.

The closing discussions felt like when something terrible happens and everyone puts stuff aside for a short while. Except he didn't at any point try to rescue KS as he seemed to do with ED in Feb. It felt as though everyone was watching a body bleeding out and there was nothing could be done except talk quietly and as nicely as possible.

KS sounded at times like a confident Consultant taking charge of ward round. And then increasingly towards the end she was quiet, talking very slowly, pausing a lot. I think she must have known that the processes she and others led had been unfair, but it seemed as though this may be the first time she has considered it from Sandie Peggie's perspective.

if this is the first time she is considering a nurse of 30 years feelings she needs to not be in this job she is not there for only one person and honestly of all the people i am disgusted with KS has really offended me actually.

WallaceinAnderland · 22/07/2025 16:41

I am still catching up on the last thread - at the bit where they are talking about discussion in CR being recorded as a hate incident. I have a question.

If it was a hate incident for Sandie to discuss with DU whether or not he should be in the female changing rooms, why was it not also a hate incident when KS discussed the exact same thing with DU.

And previous witnesses (IB etc.) have also said that they considered and discussed with each other whether it would be appropriate for DU to use the female changing room.

Why were they not recorded as hate incidents. Either it is a legitimate question to ask, or it's not.

thiswilloutme · 22/07/2025 16:41

Jerabilis · 22/07/2025 16:12

To be fair, I can't remember the last time I saw a TV show or film that was this gripping!

Maybe there needs to be a court case screening service we could subscribe to, I'd choose it over Netflix!

I've recently (and yes I blame MN for this) become hooked on TV shows about solving cold cases, some of the forensic stuff is very very cool these days. Watching them unravel the truth from a twisted story is fascinating.....

RobinEllacotStrike · 22/07/2025 16:41

One of my birthing midwives was Muslim - she declined to even shake the hand of my male birth partner after a long birthing experience together.

There is zero chance she would have changed in the same changing room as her male midwife (& breastfeeling led) colleague or male nurses or doctors & I cannot imagine the NHS treating her this way.

CriticalCondition · 22/07/2025 16:41

Reflecting on KS's evidence there was one point where I thought I heard the sound of pennies dropping.

It was after KS had acknowledged that a significant proportion of women have suffered male violence or sexual abuse but they don't wear badges so you don't know who they are.

And then NC asked KS whether she thought she'd shown any empathy for SP when she proposed BU and SP have a resolution meeting to 'talk it all through'.

Charabanc · 22/07/2025 16:41

Tandora · 22/07/2025 16:36

Some reading for you.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28033665/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4441533/

"The genetic causes for around 70% of DSDs affecting gonadal development are still unknown."
Further

"there have been great advances over the last century. Our conception of gender identity has evolved from our initial belief in the predominant influence of upbringing and social influences on gender identity development to the appreciation of a more complex psychosexual developmental process involving androgen imprinting."

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4441533/

Edited

Neither of those quotes support your position.

moto748e · 22/07/2025 16:42

Pluvia · 22/07/2025 16:24

Are there many sane consultants in the UK? I'm just one person but I have known — at one time been on friendly terms — with four doctors, three of whom are full-on TRAs like Kay Searle (one has even specialised in gender medicine) and one of whom has contemplated transition herself and may, for all I know, have had top surgery and be on T. I know only two doctors who are openly GC and they seem to think that they are the only two in their departments and have felt compelled to hide their beliefs as a result.

Well there's a sobering statement, right there. Jeez. Still, more sunlight the better, of course.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 22/07/2025 16:44

The thought of DU contributing to the Trust's policies - is that what they said? - is scary. NC has shown up where this ideology comes from, how it embeds itself, how the echo chamber is built and maintained. We wont ask the dissenters, they're evil.

Which brings me back to the nurses' union and how neatly the RCN silenced Jenny W from the Scottish Lesbians (previous thread or so(!) when they were (supposedly) having an open conversation about the Supreme Court ruling and how the RCN should reposition itself and create new guidance.

And the shock and horror when someone really does dissent.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/07/2025 16:44

Joboomer · 22/07/2025 16:32

Yes @MrsOvertonsWindow but, is he a strong or powerful man? Slimy and manipulative probably yes. Did he face strong opposition? IMO he did not because he was only up against one nurse and he had the organisations culture on his side.
We shall see his true strength if he becomes a successful doctor.

Yes. I suppose I was thinking of power in terms of ability to coerce others to do someone’s bidding. Which is why we’re in this mess as numerous trans activists have bullied and intimidated others to comply with their demands. There’s no charisma, people skills or empathy that encourages others to follow. Just manipulation and threats, monitoring for compliance and complaining to get what they want - which so often is access to women and girls undressing.

With these demands being embedded in hospital policy 😑

InvisibleDragon · 22/07/2025 16:44

This seems pertinent to KS discovering that "Be kind" etc etc is not in fact harmless:
www.lewissociety.org/innerring/
If you are drawn in, next week it will be something a little further from the rules, and next year something further still, but all in the jolliest, friendliest spirit. It may end in a crash, a scandal, and penal servitude; it may end in millions, a peerage and giving the prizes at your old school. But you will be a scoundrel.

And to reiterate the genuine harm caused by insisting on this nonsensical luxury belief, an academic account of a trans man experiencing a stillbirth because no one thought "he" could be pregnant:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1811491

Sam, a 32-year-old man, was brought to the emergency department by his boyfriend. Sam reported an 8-hour history of severe (8 out of 10), intermittent lower abdominal pain. In triage, he had a blood pressure of 185/84 mm Hg and a heart rate of 67 beats per minute. The triage nurse noted that he was an obese man who appeared comfortable between bouts of pain. Sam told the nurse that he was a transgender man. His electronic medical record (EMR) indicated that he was male. He had previously used testosterone, as well as antihypertensives, both of which he had discontinued because he’d lost his insurance coverage. It had been several years since he last menstruated. He had taken a home pregnancy test that morning and got a positive result, but he wondered whether it was a false positive. He added that he had “peed himself” that morning.

The triage nurse assessed him to be a man with abdominal pain who had not taken his prescribed blood-pressure medications. Determining that his condition was stable, she triaged him to nonurgent assessment. Laboratory samples were drawn, including one for human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) testing, and Sam awaited further evaluation.

Several hours later, an emergency physician came to evaluate him. She noted the positive results of the serum hCG test and took a more detailed history, considering possible early pregnancy complications. On examination, she noted that his abdomen was not only obese but also gravid. The evaluation had changed: the patient had severe abdominal pain, possible ruptured membranes, and hypertension in advanced pregnancy, which suggested possible labor, placental abruption, or preeclampsia — urgent conditions presenting a potential emergency.

Bedside ultrasonography was performed, confirming an advanced pregnancy with unclear presence of fetal cardiac activity. The obstetrics team was paged urgently. On pelvic exam, the cervix was found to be dilated to 4 to 5 cm. The umbilical cord was palpated in the vagina: Sam had cord prolapse of uncertain duration. The fetal head was immediately elevated. Sam was rapidly counseled regarding the findings and the need for an emergency caesarean delivery. He consented and was transferred to the operating room for further evaluation. In the operating room, no fetal heartbeat could be detected on ultrasound. Given the fetal death, Sam was transferred to a delivery suite where, moments later, he delivered a stillborn baby.

After discharge from the hospital, Sam reestablished care. He resumed antihypertensive treatment and requested the placement of a copper IUD. Though he had not planned or expected the pregnancy, he was heartbroken at the loss of his baby and had a major depressive episode. Despite having significant dysphoria related to menstruation, he has not resumed testosterone treatment, since he prefers to have continued menses that reassure him that he is not pregnant.

I know I put this on the previous thread, but I think it bears repeating. Refusing to acknowledge biological sex causes real harm to real people and doctors above anyone should understand this.

Merrymouse · 22/07/2025 16:44

BeLemonNow · 22/07/2025 16:37

Ie.. KS response "I'm not an expert" is a classic get out of jail free card/I don't want to answer the question. It's dishonest and slippery.

I can't imagine Kate helping a woman give birth in an emergency car park or on a flight, the woman asking is it a boy or a girl and her saying "I'm not an expert, sorry!".

It's nothing to do with intersex. Dr. Upton has claimed they think doctors make a kind of best guess of sex at birth and most others don't want to get involved in contradicting that.

An actual honest answer would be something like "usually doctors determine the sex of babies by external genitalia".

Never mind the baby - how does she know it's a woman in labour at all? Without a chromosome check it could be a man with a beer belly!

BeLemonNow · 22/07/2025 16:44

@thiswilloutme agreed. I only got into this case after a causal Google of a BBC article, ended up on this Mumsnet thread and have been hooked every since. I must come across totally obsessed, and feel a tad guilty.

However, at least Sandie has been cleared of misconduct finally at the disciplinary hearing. So even if she doesn't "win" or all all these points she can carry on practising as a nurse.

Greyskybluesky · 22/07/2025 16:45

Merrymouse · 22/07/2025 16:39

And also, as a pp pointed out, as an A&E doctor she will sometimes deal with patients who aren't in a state to communicate their sex, and she will have to come to a conclusion herself.

👆These are the questions I want answering!
To KS - "what would you do in xyz situation...."

I appreciate the tribunal is not the place for it.
She should do an AMA with us!

Tandora · 22/07/2025 16:45

FallinUltra · 22/07/2025 16:37

You can’t have such a thing as disorders of sexual development, if sex is a nebulous dog whistle.

The existence of DSDs are evidence that not only is sex real and material, but also that it is binary.

So very odd to insist that the existence of observations that cannot be categorised easily within a strictly binary framework are somehow actually evidence that the variable is strictly binary. Bonkers some of the topsy turvy reasoning on these threads🙃

AAT65 · 22/07/2025 16:46

BaronMunchausen · 22/07/2025 16:35

"Beth has every right to use the facilities she wants under the GRA."

Was Searle implying that Upton has a GRC?

No, but yes, but no.
I think she was relying on Dr Google and was conflating all sorts of gender woo including non criminal hate speech which wasn't in force at the time. (Remember the fuss about reporting JKR about pre-Act "hate" speech). Her superficial searches won't have covered nuances of Haldane or anything other than TWAW.

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 16:46

BeLemonNow · 22/07/2025 16:37

Ie.. KS response "I'm not an expert" is a classic get out of jail free card/I don't want to answer the question. It's dishonest and slippery.

I can't imagine Kate helping a woman give birth in an emergency car park or on a flight, the woman asking is it a boy or a girl and her saying "I'm not an expert, sorry!".

It's nothing to do with intersex. Dr. Upton has claimed they think doctors make a kind of best guess of sex at birth and most others don't want to get involved in contradicting that.

An actual honest answer would be something like "usually doctors determine the sex of babies by external genitalia".

It's nothing to do with intersex.

TRAs have been exploiting DSDs and spreading misinformation about them to serve their cause for years. It has been so thoroughly debunked that anyone who still uses DSDs to argue that men are women if they say they are deserves to get lacerated on a witness stand by NC. All DSDs are variations of male or female, it's nothing to do with transgenderism and the DSD community has repeatedly asked TRAs to stop it because it's offensive.

Weirdly, despite arguing that the existence of DSDs makes sex far too difficult to observe or even be real, TRAs remain committed to ostensibly single sex spaces, largely so that they can argue that men have more right to them than women.

Fluffygreyjumper · 22/07/2025 16:47

Pluvia · 22/07/2025 16:24

Are there many sane consultants in the UK? I'm just one person but I have known — at one time been on friendly terms — with four doctors, three of whom are full-on TRAs like Kay Searle (one has even specialised in gender medicine) and one of whom has contemplated transition herself and may, for all I know, have had top surgery and be on T. I know only two doctors who are openly GC and they seem to think that they are the only two in their departments and have felt compelled to hide their beliefs as a result.

I'm a consultant and used to fall into the "TWAW " category which makes me boke. Now full blown GC but closeted apart from family and some close friends. Have a TW colleague (who I consider to be a good work friend) so it is not a safe topic for conversation and thankfully rarely comes up. I'm almost certain I'm not the only consultant in my department who is GC.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 22/07/2025 16:47

Tandora · 22/07/2025 16:45

So very odd to insist that the existence of observations that cannot be categorised easily within a strictly binary framework are somehow actually evidence that the variable is strictly binary. Bonkers some of the topsy turvy reasoning on these threads🙃

Like this?

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37
PlasticAcrobat · 22/07/2025 16:48

snickersbarchild · 22/07/2025 16:32

Am I right in my thinking that the issue with the email was that they had been fiddled with in order to change the order of them, and this was done to hide the fact that the 6 people copied in were conniving before the investigation took place? And also, that there are documents missing that tie all the disclosed emails in the chain (that was presented as two different chains but NC is saying was one chain) together? I am a bit befuddled.

My understanding was that NC was seeking to demonstrate that the email which was not initially provided to the court was part of a chain of emails that had been provided.

If it was a standalone email, not part of a chain, it might be plausible to imagine that it was simply missed when people initially trawled their inboxes for relevant stuff. But if it was part of a chain, that is not possible. It would have to have been deliberately removed.

The content of that email seems to have been about witnesses allegedly improperly collaborating in relation to the investigation. And its absence from documents originally submitted to the court seems to suggest that the very same group of people were also collaborating in 'disappearing' it from the chain. So, a double-dose of alleged contempt of process.

NecessaryScene · 22/07/2025 16:48

So very odd to insist that the existence of observations that cannot be categorised easily within a strictly binary framework are somehow actually evidence that the variable is strictly binary.

So very odd to insist that the existence of observations that can be categorised within a strictly binary framework are somehow actually evidence that the variable is not strictly binary.

Or was that 'easily' an error?

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