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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

OP posts:
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29
unbelieveable22 · 22/07/2025 20:13

Mollyollydolly · 22/07/2025 18:53

Is it possible to mute a particular poster in a thread?

The contributor who asked this morning to be 'left alone'?
Just remind people of @nauticant response to that request

''Note this request from the post above: Please just leave me alone.
Let's comply with that''

rebmacesrevda · 22/07/2025 20:13

Is it 11:30 kick-off tomorrow? Or is IT Guy in the hot seat before KS?

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 20:13

rebmacesrevda · 22/07/2025 20:02

I think they're far too arrogant and not nearly clever enough to do that.

But if that's what they're trying to do, then that's what they want us to think.

And they couldn't be more convincing, but still...

Jitrenka · 22/07/2025 20:15

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 19:57

No more like the idea of women in his head, pillow fights and tampon swapping and makeup tips.

oh its all so gross and violating and women dont even realise this is what they are thinking when ‘they just want to use the bathroom’ unwilling/unknowingly being a part of someone else’s paraphilia is in itself a paraphilia and young people need to know this instead of just being kind!!

Extravirginolive · 22/07/2025 20:15

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:08

Yes

So it's gratuitous smearing at this point isn't it?

A chorus playing for the trans audience that will only ever hear bigot racist bigot homophobe bigot.

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 20:16

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:12

Does Anyone know what this means btw?

facilitated reflective practice discussion would be appropriate.

Sit in the corner and just think about what you've done style punishment for doing fuck all.

That's what it means.

Enough4me · 22/07/2025 20:16

rebmacesrevda · 22/07/2025 20:06

I'm sure they do know what sex they are. But they think pretending not to know what sex they are makes them look clever 😬

Or is it about control?

  • It is the way I say it is just because I say so (or otherwise I accuse you of discrimination).
  • I am not the sex you see because I've decided I'm the opposite sex (which always makes me more of a victim than others of the sex I'm identifying into)
  • I won't seek a way to resolve my discomfort with my very being, you must validate that I'm right.
spannasaurus · 22/07/2025 20:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Я не русский бот

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:17

Extravirginolive · 22/07/2025 20:15

So it's gratuitous smearing at this point isn't it?

A chorus playing for the trans audience that will only ever hear bigot racist bigot homophobe bigot.

I don’t think it’s gratuitous smearing no. I think her actions and the testimony support the claims.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 22/07/2025 20:17

Tandora · 22/07/2025 19:03

I didn't say that 'sex was a spectrum' - to me spectrum implies linearity. But sex is complex and multidimensional - we can't just point to one thing and say 'this defines sex' - which is what the Doctors in this tribunal are trying to explain.

Forgive me, slight derail.

As someone with a developmental disorder, a "spectrum" if you will, there's nothing linear about spectrums and I find your use of the word spectrum offensive.

CassOle · 22/07/2025 20:18

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 20:16

Sit in the corner and just think about what you've done style punishment for doing fuck all.

That's what it means.

I suspect that reading Robert Lifton's 'Thought Reform And The Psychology Of Totalism' will give an insight into what that phrase means.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:18

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 20:16

Sit in the corner and just think about what you've done style punishment for doing fuck all.

That's what it means.

So for SP?. So they did think she needed some sort of intervention?

rebmacesrevda · 22/07/2025 20:19

Enough4me · 22/07/2025 20:16

Or is it about control?

  • It is the way I say it is just because I say so (or otherwise I accuse you of discrimination).
  • I am not the sex you see because I've decided I'm the opposite sex (which always makes me more of a victim than others of the sex I'm identifying into)
  • I won't seek a way to resolve my discomfort with my very being, you must validate that I'm right.

I was talking about the allies, who know fine well what their sex is but pretend they'd need a chromosome test or a crystal ball to be sure.

SigourneyHoward · 22/07/2025 20:20

@myplace i like your portmanteau - especially the echo of deluvian as 'flooding' (the board in an effort to overwhelm, not in the SP sense of menstrual flooding)

ArabellaScott · 22/07/2025 20:20

spannasaurus · 22/07/2025 20:17

Я не русский бот

That's exactly what I'd expect a Russian bot to say.

Largesso · 22/07/2025 20:20

myplace · 22/07/2025 20:04

Case summary, from a non expert onlooker:

DU started using women’s changing rooms.
SP tried to avoid using them when he was there
DU started keeping notes on her behaviour
SP told him he shouldn’t be there and asked him to give her privacy (menstrual flooding to manage)
DU found a senior colleague to cry at and was escorted out.
DU wrote a complaint email.
Various senior people circulated emails saying SPs behaviour was awful and how they were on His side.
SP was suspended, removed from her usual shifts, a disciplinary was started for bullying and harassing DU and compromising patient safety

SP takes DU and NHSF to employment tribunal.
At tribunal, it becomes apparent-
loads of people suddenly don’t know what sex they are, or how they could be expected to know.
NHSF apparently has no processes or policies, and doesn’t follow what it has, and sends ill advised emails out undermining their own processes.
NHSF has failed to disclose information relevant to the case
No one actually thinks DU is female, they just do a decent job of usually using the wrong pronouns for him
Disciplinary investigation finds SP not to have bullied or harassed DU, and not to have compromised patient safety.
DU imagined she might compromise patient safety and raised the issue on that basis.

So far, the worst thing anyone has found to say about SP is that she agrees with some of what Trump says. In an attempt to paint her as the issue, they have interrogated her family about her behaviour, her and their political opinions, accusations of racism and homophobia.

Meanwhile DU has misrepresented multiple situations and accused a colleague of bad unprofessional behaviour.
NHSF has hidden evidence, been ticked off by the information commissioner, and employed people who don’t do or understand their job and coordinated an attempt to bully an experienced nurse out of her job.

The world is looking on aghast at the shit show that is NHSF and the money they have poured away.

Meanwhile Tandora is trying to distract from the appalling situation by talking about DSDs and whether some people feel more or less male than other males WHICH IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THE THREAD, and New gender critical people spawn every time an NHSF witness opens their mouth to speak.

We need a portmanteau for deluded and irrelevant.
I propose ‘diluvelant’.

It was clear from today’s evidence that DU had discussed SP avoiding him in the cr prior to the Xmas encounter. KS emailed IB on Dec 8. She emailed asking for more info but this was odd as she claims to have settled the matter re f cr with DU in August. She then said she didn’t recall why she sent that email then and JR later asked if she might have already been aware of the two times DU had noted down SP removing herself from f cr.

I read into this that KS had been informed by KD that SP had raised concerns.

Which means that she had been primed to think of the Xmas conversation as an ‘escalation‘

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 22/07/2025 20:21

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 22/07/2025 20:17

Forgive me, slight derail.

As someone with a developmental disorder, a "spectrum" if you will, there's nothing linear about spectrums and I find your use of the word spectrum offensive.

This user is only here to be provocative, best ignored.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:21

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 22/07/2025 20:17

Forgive me, slight derail.

As someone with a developmental disorder, a "spectrum" if you will, there's nothing linear about spectrums and I find your use of the word spectrum offensive.

i can’t help you with that I’m afraid. 🤷🏼‍♀️

I wouldn’t use “spectrum” to describe sex as to me the word is usually used to imply some sort of continuous variation on a linear scale. Like the electromagnetic spectrum which is what I think it was originally invented to denote?

Apocalypselastyear · 22/07/2025 20:22

.

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 20:23

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:18

So for SP?. So they did think she needed some sort of intervention?

Weeeeellllll Tandora....

.... would you like me to go back to the start of this and explain very slowly that the premise of the legal action is that Sandie Peggie and her legal team think NHS Fife have got it in for her and don't like people who don't believe in gender woo woo and think that it's a hate crime deserving of punishment if you say you don't believe in gender woo woo and you don't want to play along?

Did you miss the entire contents of the last 36,000 posts?

myplace · 22/07/2025 20:24

Bubblegumicecreamm · 22/07/2025 20:07

I know this is probably old news for everyone in this thread but I’m just reading through the threads where DU is answering NC for the first time. I can’t believe what I’m reading. How are there people listening to his POV and thinking this is a normal stance? He has admitted he knew his presence was making her uncomfortable? He says bodies don’t matter when it comes to male/ female? Called himself a biological female? The whole plumber-gate? I’ve not even finished reading and have had to take a break.

SP is very brave to have said something, I’m not sure if I would have been brave enough to but I guess that’s the problem isn’t it? It can feel like we can’t call an orange an orange without backlash. Hats off to SP

I was so shocked by what I was reading that I got access to watch. All I can say is, watching him was even worse.

He was so, so smug and complacent. The line about being a woman and not being a robot, so is biologically female was 🤯 and delivered with a smirk. He used this irritating faux demure voice and was very tight lipped. He came across as utterly false and disingenuous- deceptive- above and beyond his portraying himself as female. It felt very disconcerting because he was so controlled and contained as he maintained this facade. Really creepy.

He was reminiscent of an actor playing a psychopath- obviously psychopaths aren’t actually like that!

rebmacesrevda · 22/07/2025 20:25

@RedToothBrush
You know the best way to manage an attention-seeker, right?

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 22/07/2025 20:25

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:21

i can’t help you with that I’m afraid. 🤷🏼‍♀️

I wouldn’t use “spectrum” to describe sex as to me the word is usually used to imply some sort of continuous variation on a linear scale. Like the electromagnetic spectrum which is what I think it was originally invented to denote?

Edited

Is that how it's usually used though? Or is that just like, your opinion, man?

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:26

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 20:23

Weeeeellllll Tandora....

.... would you like me to go back to the start of this and explain very slowly that the premise of the legal action is that Sandie Peggie and her legal team think NHS Fife have got it in for her and don't like people who don't believe in gender woo woo and think that it's a hate crime deserving of punishment if you say you don't believe in gender woo woo and you don't want to play along?

Did you miss the entire contents of the last 36,000 posts?

Yes I understand. Which is precisely why NHS dice lawyers are trying to show that actually she is a bigot .

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