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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

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29
BeLemonNow · 22/07/2025 20:00

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 19:25

Isn't it just?

Mind you chickens might have seven genders but we'd never know because we don't speak chicken and we 'can't prove it'.

Damn I just left my allotment and couldn't ask them! I always call (my neighbour's) chickens "girlies".

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 20:00

ArabellaScott · 22/07/2025 19:58

Does a chicken have a gender identity?

I had not seen this before.

We have passed through the looking glass.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:01

CorruptedCauldron · 22/07/2025 19:54

Thanks for all these threads, I can’t keep up with them but I’ve been dipping in as much as possible. Two things have come to mind.

Firstly, the media coverage is bad for my blood pressure. The BBC is hopelessly captured and will never report on this in a way that might risk putting SP in a favourable light. They don’t want the whole house of cards to come tumbling down. They worship at the altar of gender.

Secondly, why are NHS Fife trying so hard to smear SP’s character? I don’t get it. Do we only allow women the single-sex spaces they’re legally entitled to if they are lovely delicate flowers who wouldn’t say boo to a goose? And tell the women we suspect of being racist or homophobic or just generally unpleasant (based on unfounded rumours and spiteful tittle-tattle), that they cannot enjoy these privileges?

Either all women, good and bad, are entitled to change their period blood-soaked scrubs in peace away from males, for the sake of their dignity and privacy, or no women are. Trashing Sandie’s character looks pretty desperate and underhand to me.

She is a warrior. ❤️

BBC, NHS Fife and BMC all “captured”. Or….

Secondly, why are NHS Fife trying so hard to smear SP’s character? I don’t get it. Do we only allow women the single-sex spaces they’re legally entitled to if they are lovely delicate flowers who wouldn’t say boo to a goose?

Part of SP’s claim is discrimination related to a “protected belief”. If the NHS can demonstrate that she wasn’t suspended due to a protected belief, but rather due to behaving in a bigoted / discriminatory manner then they can successfully defend this part of the lawsuit.

rebmacesrevda · 22/07/2025 20:02

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 20:00

Do you think Fife is playing some crazy long game and trying to make this happen? So that the proper judgement doesn't happen and they and TRAs can claim they lost only because of that?

I think they're far too arrogant and not nearly clever enough to do that.

Extravirginolive · 22/07/2025 20:03

InvisibleDragon · 22/07/2025 19:57

Regarding the Re: email and non-disclosure, does anyone know whether the issue is just that all 6 individuals on the thread failed to disclose the initial email for the first tribunal? Or is the implication that there is yet another undisclosed email?

There's a whole conversation between the six missing, only the final email in the trail was presented.

But the header was a re: which means it wasn't a standalone email, so they left a mahoosive clue to their editing in place.

Oops.

NotAGentleReminder · 22/07/2025 20:03

Lins77 · 22/07/2025 19:01

It hasn't.

Goodness, who wrote this? What a load of unscientific, badly written nonsense. On an NHS information page.

ArabellaScott · 22/07/2025 20:03

rebmacesrevda · 22/07/2025 20:02

I think they're far too arrogant and not nearly clever enough to do that.

Yes. These are people who don't know what sex they are.

myplace · 22/07/2025 20:04

Case summary, from a non expert onlooker:

DU started using women’s changing rooms.
SP tried to avoid using them when he was there
DU started keeping notes on her behaviour
SP told him he shouldn’t be there and asked him to give her privacy (menstrual flooding to manage)
DU found a senior colleague to cry at and was escorted out.
DU wrote a complaint email.
Various senior people circulated emails saying SPs behaviour was awful and how they were on His side.
SP was suspended, removed from her usual shifts, a disciplinary was started for bullying and harassing DU and compromising patient safety

SP takes DU and NHSF to employment tribunal.
At tribunal, it becomes apparent-
loads of people suddenly don’t know what sex they are, or how they could be expected to know.
NHSF apparently has no processes or policies, and doesn’t follow what it has, and sends ill advised emails out undermining their own processes.
NHSF has failed to disclose information relevant to the case
No one actually thinks DU is female, they just do a decent job of usually using the wrong pronouns for him
Disciplinary investigation finds SP not to have bullied or harassed DU, and not to have compromised patient safety.
DU imagined she might compromise patient safety and raised the issue on that basis.

So far, the worst thing anyone has found to say about SP is that she agrees with some of what Trump says. In an attempt to paint her as the issue, they have interrogated her family about her behaviour, her and their political opinions, accusations of racism and homophobia.

Meanwhile DU has misrepresented multiple situations and accused a colleague of bad unprofessional behaviour.
NHSF has hidden evidence, been ticked off by the information commissioner, and employed people who don’t do or understand their job and coordinated an attempt to bully an experienced nurse out of her job.

The world is looking on aghast at the shit show that is NHSF and the money they have poured away.

Meanwhile Tandora is trying to distract from the appalling situation by talking about DSDs and whether some people feel more or less male than other males WHICH IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THE THREAD, and New gender critical people spawn every time an NHSF witness opens their mouth to speak.

We need a portmanteau for deluded and irrelevant.
I propose ‘diluvelant’.

Theswiveleyeballsinthesky · 22/07/2025 20:04

NoBinturongsHereMate · 22/07/2025 19:58

KS's belief she can outmanoeuvre NC reminds me of one of the academics in Peoneix v OU, who was under the impression he was in his own lecture theatre rather than a courtroom and was there to educate the judge.

That went similarly well.

Ah yes happy memories 😁

JamMakingWannaBe · 22/07/2025 20:05

RobinEllacotStrike · 22/07/2025 16:19

My 14yo daughter just came home & asked what I was watching - "It looks kind of boring" 😁

Oh No DD this is an ET which has the potential to impact every woman in the UK and ringfence our single sex spaces so you will never be forced to undress in front of a man. See that lady there - she is an actual doctor who is pretending we get to choose what sex we are. I know I know.

I think this post is worth repeating.

I have a 9yo DD and this ET has the potential to impact EVERY single woman and girl in the UK to protect our SSS and ensure my DD is NEVER forced to undress infront of a man - EVER. I can't express enough my gratitude to SP, NC, JKR, MF, all at FWS and all supporters for the sunlight.

Also thanks to @BezMills. Your commentary on curly wurlies and the judge kicking off his slippers had me in stitches!

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 22/07/2025 20:06

BeLemonNow · 22/07/2025 20:00

Damn I just left my allotment and couldn't ask them! I always call (my neighbour's) chickens "girlies".

Ask them if their chromosomes have been checked 😂

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 20:06

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:01

BBC, NHS Fife and BMC all “captured”. Or….

Secondly, why are NHS Fife trying so hard to smear SP’s character? I don’t get it. Do we only allow women the single-sex spaces they’re legally entitled to if they are lovely delicate flowers who wouldn’t say boo to a goose?

Part of SP’s claim is discrimination related to a “protected belief”. If the NHS can demonstrate that she wasn’t suspended due to a protected belief, but rather due to behaving in a bigoted / discriminatory manner then they can successfully defend this part of the lawsuit.

They've rather shot themselves in the foot by finding her not guilty of anything in their own disciplinary investigations then haven't they?

rebmacesrevda · 22/07/2025 20:06

ArabellaScott · 22/07/2025 20:03

Yes. These are people who don't know what sex they are.

I'm sure they do know what sex they are. But they think pretending not to know what sex they are makes them look clever 😬

Extravirginolive · 22/07/2025 20:07

SigourneyHoward · 22/07/2025 19:58

Sorry for the double quote but i'm confused.

If it is clear that there was an email exchange that wasn't produced in discovery (although am still a little unclear if that email exchange has now been shared and what it atually says)why have the R's called the IT guy as witness. Does proving the email chain wasn't severed help the fact that 6 poeple didn't proffer up in discovery - not really I think. Or are the R's calling him so they can get a narrative in ahead of NC? Or do the R's think they've discovered a SP smoking gun, or could it be something else entirely..

This is more likely to be about timestamps on Uptons phone, to prove his notes were contemporaneous.

Bubblegumicecreamm · 22/07/2025 20:07

I know this is probably old news for everyone in this thread but I’m just reading through the threads where DU is answering NC for the first time. I can’t believe what I’m reading. How are there people listening to his POV and thinking this is a normal stance? He has admitted he knew his presence was making her uncomfortable? He says bodies don’t matter when it comes to male/ female? Called himself a biological female? The whole plumber-gate? I’ve not even finished reading and have had to take a break.

SP is very brave to have said something, I’m not sure if I would have been brave enough to but I guess that’s the problem isn’t it? It can feel like we can’t call an orange an orange without backlash. Hats off to SP

KnottyAuty · 22/07/2025 20:07

Appalonia · 22/07/2025 16:17

Agree. Trans ideology destroys everything it touches. It's like the opposite of The Midas Touch. There really should be a new word for this...

Mud-ass?

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:08

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 20:06

They've rather shot themselves in the foot by finding her not guilty of anything in their own disciplinary investigations then haven't they?

Edited

Yes

Rhaidimiddim · 22/07/2025 20:08

ExitPursuedByABare · 22/07/2025 18:43

And gay men, in my experience, are the complete opposite, empathetic, caring and kind.

Including our own lovely Little Owen. So empathic.

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 20:10

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:08

Yes

Excellent, now I know you can see my posts are 'nice' ladies entitled to sss or not?

Largesso · 22/07/2025 20:10

TimeForATerf · 22/07/2025 19:52

I’ve been thinking about this.

“Engagement” in a changing room is very different for men. Male pattern behaviour in rugby and football changing rooms (I’m told - husband and son, male friends) and probably hockey changing rooms is lots of naked men, banter, walking around with your bits on show and sharing showers, chatting about the game whilst soaping your ball sack. Women, on the other hand, are more likely to embrace cubicles, privacy and showing as little flesh as possible. dignity and privacy is a whole different ball (no pun intended) game.

Women just don’t engage in changing rooms other than perhaps when you’re clean and dressed and drying your hair.

That’s a very good point.

And for many women, that is doubly likely if we encounter men in those spaces.

Malakion · 22/07/2025 20:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

NotAGentleReminder · 22/07/2025 20:12

JamieCannister · 22/07/2025 18:12

Oh come on, you know full well that there is barely a hospital department in the UK that hasn't had to deal with dozens of women complaining that other women are not stripping off in front of them. Basically a daily occurence, apart from in the more woke hospitals where the nurses all get changed together whilst giggling and having pillow fights and swapping tampons.

😆

NannyMcSpareMe · 22/07/2025 20:12

Jacopo · 22/07/2025 19:28

NHSFife and the University of St Andrews have signed up to a special partnership, announced in July this year as follows: “NHS Fife has officially become the first Health Board in more than 50 years to be formally granted University Health Board status, in partnership with the University of St Andrews, in recognition of its outstanding commitment to education, research, and innovation.” As it’s now a University Health Board maybe some of the professors could help them out with the nonsense NHSFife put on their website about intersex etc etc? After all they’re used to marking student essays and this isn’t anywhere near undergraduate level drivel.

Oh god. I know of one person who’s been sent over by NHSFife to “advise” medical students at the uni and, if they’re anything to go by, it’s just a way of the health board getting rid of really annoying people who shouldn’t be allowed near actual patients 🤣 wouldn’t hold my breath.

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 20:12

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:01

BBC, NHS Fife and BMC all “captured”. Or….

Secondly, why are NHS Fife trying so hard to smear SP’s character? I don’t get it. Do we only allow women the single-sex spaces they’re legally entitled to if they are lovely delicate flowers who wouldn’t say boo to a goose?

Part of SP’s claim is discrimination related to a “protected belief”. If the NHS can demonstrate that she wasn’t suspended due to a protected belief, but rather due to behaving in a bigoted / discriminatory manner then they can successfully defend this part of the lawsuit.

Yes.

Talking absolute gobshite.

NEXT.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:12

Tandora · 22/07/2025 20:08

Yes

Does Anyone know what this means btw?

facilitated reflective practice discussion would be appropriate.

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