NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

I agree. I wrote and complained and got a very condescending email in return - emphatic that the BBC are fair and impartial.

I despair because it's really, really not difficult to report this tribunal much more neutrally.

Aunty Beeb is now revealing he was assigned male at birth and showing it.

Ah ok i was wrong soz!

You provided no actual verifiable true scientific research. If it were real, the trans community would be using it.

Also curious is the level of rage and verbal ad hominem attack/ character- decimation provoked by respectful discussion of scientific realities in relation to sex development.

Did you put that through AI? Because that word salad doesn't even make sense on a basic level.

I can never decide whether sperg or spegg is my favourite. I love the colour and shape of speggs, but much prefer the name sperg.

As I understand things, NC said that were that to be the case that would be part of the evidence and so effectively gave an invitation for the inference coming from that (ie there's no GRC) to be contradicted:

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1888922613059096786

They dont even know what sex they are themselves how can you possibly think they are knowledgable on the complexities of the sex binary??

Yes it is solely about gender stereotypes. Your denial is another example of misogynistic and femphobic sexist trope.

And who can forget the chief clerk and his open mike oopsie “faaacking hell” as he got up from the table after his evidence.

Thanks, I'd forgotten him! 😂It sounded so heartfelt as a response to the experience of being cross-examined.

I mentioned to DH only today (because it might be an appropriate response to a Fife witness at some point) Ben Cooper's response to a witness: "It would be cruel of me to ask how that's going." Who was that, & what was that about?

However, I’d really rather we didn’t have another circular conversation with Tandora on these threads - we’re never going to agree on the science and this case is all about the law and how Sandie Peggie was treated. Not relitigating FWS or revisiting the same old arguments.

Agree. Pointless, & a waste of @nauticant 's fabulous efforts with the threads.

There is not one actual doctor that will deny that sex is binary.

Thanks found one by @PestoHoliday by googling Sandie Peggie, Mumsnet and Courgette Fritters. Now these will be forever linked.

I don’t mean to be the thread police but… Please don’t let a certain poster derail with their own pseudo reality of what sex, trans and everything in between is (hint, it’s utter pish). Happens on too many threads and it’s painful to watch. There’s a few recent ones where this has happened that I’m sure would be more useful to argue red is actually blue, according to said poster, there.

As you don't have an allotment to attend perhaps you can use the time to answer whether 'nice' women are deserving of single sex spaces or not please.

So, as Dr Kate Searle would say "you can't prove it".

Sharing a different perspective on the topic under discussion is not "derailing the thread".

You bigot, assuming as you do that it was a women giving birth!

@BezMills about the only way I can keep a grasp on all of this is by reading your posts.

Especially the Fifer (I hope the beer has stopped coming out of his nose).

Thank for the information and the entertainment.

This is absolutely true. As a doctor myself I find these testimonies horrifying. And some of the posts on here talking about how people aren’t surprised because the arrogance chimes with their experience of healthcare… it just really saddens me.

I keep hoping (expecting?) that at some point someone with national standing in the medical profession will make a statement distancing the rest of us from these morons. And yet as we know the GMC, BMA, many of the Royal Colleges… none of them any use.

Your ‘sharing a different perspective’ is mine and many others ‘making up nonsense to suit my ridiculous narrative which doesn’t stand up to scrutiny or sense’.

This is about the tribunal. You are a stickler for sticking to the thread topic are you not as I recall?

It's fucking appalling, these people are paid very well out of public funds and are seemingly so incompetent as to be a danger to patients with their belief in and spouting of this nonsense. Who the hell would want to be treated by these doctors?

The NHS including its' reputation is in the toilet.

I sympathise. It can't be easy knowing there are people who associate you with this shower.

Sorry about derailing the thread i tend to get emo with people who produce nonsensical articles about intersex possible proving sex is not binary it seems insane to me that my mum and dad saved for years incase we had to move cos someone found out about my sister and now we have every tom dick and harry using her condition as reasoning why they should be able to carry out their paraphilias in public and that we all should just ‘be kind’ i dont feel very much like being kind when things like the SP case are happening and knowing they managed to do a lot of this on the back of intersex exists therefore i dont have a paraphilia and this is not sexual i am really a woman!!

Hoorah. Finally got a few minutes to sit down and fine out what’s occurring, as Nessa would say.

I have no idea. I've only ever worked closely with one consultant and I'd say he was definitely GC and would have considered GI complete nonsense. But he was about 75 years old and firmly stuck in the 60's. I don't know what younger consultants think. I have occasionally wandered into the doctors reddit forums but I haven't since the Peggie case arrived on the scene

This is about the tribunal. You are a stickler for sticking to the thread topic are you not as I recall?

Yes and people were discussing why the medical doctors were being so equivocal on the subject of identifying/. classifying 'sex'.

I always know when a Tribunal is going well. There's an increase in attempts to derail the thread with incomprehensible gotchas, usually involving hormones and cod medical burble.
So I reckon it's gone well for Sandie today.