NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #34

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-sil
ence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33

And here it is. The sex question 😂

CM has said 'she said/she said' again. acc. to the transcription.

tendentious - expressing or intending to promote a particular cause or point of view, especially a controversial one.

(I didn't know but of course Google did.)

Your prediction was incorrect.😀

There’s a concept in triathlon (probably other sports too) of the “fuck it moment” when all your best laid race plans have gone wrong and you have nothing left to lose. I see CM’s a rugby player, maybe she’s in the “fuck it moment”?
Glorious to see.

Well, I'll take that one on the chin.

NC going to have her for dinner. Gender and sex discussion starting

But she did - and she got a straight answer, along with an understanding that some people might see things differently.

Maybe so, but on CM's version of events Dr Searle appears to have acted entirely improperly as a senior manager. Seems like she tried to overturn CM's decision on suspension, on the basis of vague allegations and rumours. I think this is very, very damaging for KS's credibility as a witness, and also for NHS Fife's defence. CM plainly describes a number of senior staff demanding a witch-burning.

What did she reply?!

From TT

NC: Do you want to reconsider which it was, having looked at the Datix?
CM: [missed]
NC: I'm asking whether you are still sure that by "the statement" you mean the Datix, and not 'hate incident', or is it more likely to be the latter?
CM: It is quite probably both - would have used lots of sources - mindful that what is reported is she-said-she-said, no witnesses, Datix submitted by someone else I believe?
NC: Yes.
NC: So if we start with the assumption it was 'hate incident' you meant, DrU says SP asked 'what are your chromosomes'. There's nothing derogatory there, in such a discussion?
CM: Difficult Q to answer. If we are talking scientific fact then chromosomes, but, ppl can identify as they choose.
NC: A previous witness IB said she didn't know if she was male or female, but would guess F. I am going to say that you are sure you are female?
CM: Yes
NC: XX chromosomes
CM: Assume so!
NC: You're not offended by that?

NC: So if we start with the assumption it was 'hate incident' you meant, DrU says SP asked 'what chromosomes...'
CM: Difficult Q to answer. If we are talking scientific fact then chromosomes, but, ppl can identify as they choose.
NC: A previous witness IB said she didn't know if she was male or female, but would guess F. I am going to say that you are sure you are female?
CM: Yes
NC: XX chromosomes
CM: Assume so!
NC: You're not offended by that?
CM: No not personally, it's a scientific Q. And I know about physiologoy and anatomy.
NC: And humans come in two sexes
CM: Yes indeed, but, pople have every right to identify however they like

@Merrymouse Not formally no, see

www.thenational.scot/news/25325705.sandie-peggie-denies-making-racist-comment-new-allegation-emerges/

Note nurses have a professional obligation to report racist comments or they are complicit.

They've done a lot of digging on Sandie, and so far the most they came up with for this was her husband posting some dubious stuff on FB.

The Judge didn't seem impressed but allowed the questioning hoping it would be "short" I recall.

"I am female." And the followed up that some people see things in terms of gender identity (but I can't remember what words she used).

From TT

CM: No not personally, it's a scientific Q. And I know about physiologoy and anatomy.
NC: And humans come in two sexes
CM: Yes indeed, but, pople have every right to identify however they like.
NC: But in a medical context, sex is important and easily determined
CM: Well yes if scientific consideration.

Big Sond : mebbes ah'll get a day off from Pete the fuckin Plumber yet. Let's see.

NC: [reads more of DU 'hate incident' doc, inc mention of rapists in prisons]
NC: And again you did not identify anything derogatory here?
CM: I didn't know what the comment re prison was until much later so didn't identify as offensive then, but
CM - I do now see how s/o else identifying as a woman cd find that offensive. NC [missed]
CM at this point - this was just one account, I needed to talk to SP to hear other 'side'

As an aside, I just saw an article in the Guardian re athletics, and they are due to start cheek swabbing in the next few weeks once World Athletics have completed nailing down the procedure.

Some of these witnesses could benefit from that

CM at this point - this was just one account, I needed to talk to SP to hear other 'side'

Or Melanie Jorgensen (in an ideal world) could be passing an envelope around collecting funds to have CLM piped back into the office next week to let everyone know enough is enough.

Only senior management. I'd be fascinated to know how the rank & file nurses feel about it.

JR has notably not interrupted?

CM - I do now see how s/o else identifying as a woman cd find that offensive
ref to prisons, which CM didn't understand at first. allegedly.

Probably delighted

'Dr Upton' not 'Beth' as with most of the other witnesses for the respondents

Wondered if mumsnetters would like to see the herald Scotland live blog about this?..

2:11pm
Naomi Cunningham references Isla Bumba, who said she was unsure whether she was female because she had not had her chromosomes tested.
Ms Cunningham said she would "hazard a guess" that Ms Myles did not share this view.
"I am a female," Ms Myles said.
She also clarified she was not personally offended by the question.
Ms Myles said she believed there was a male and female, but she accepted people were "more than entitled" to identify as a different gender.
Ms Cunningham said this question matters in a medical context.
Clarifying Ms Myles said that if it is based on scientific and physical anatomy, then yes, she agreed.