NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #34

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-sil
ence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33

She has her beliefs and is willing to engage respectfully with people who hold opposing beliefs. This is a good thing.

I'm guessing the Workplace Regulations 1992 don't apply in Scotland; are there any rules about single sex changing facilities in workplaces?

They are not allowed in contact rugby. I believe they are still allowed in non-contact formats.

Which puts SP at a disadvantage, particularly when dealing with menstrual flooding.

More emails not in the bundle?

I suspect that the trans players are female. Does her rugby team really include men?

It's also notably a teammate. So she's not the one being tackled by a man. But she's happy for those men to tackle the women she's playing against.

While she does at least seem to have behaved appropriately in the workplace I have lost all respect for her

CM: Well I can't really bcs I share rugby changing rooms with trans players,

This is one of the reasons why she's a witness, IMO - 'See - other women can share a CR with a trans identifying male quite happily'

I think that the wider Fife staff calling Upton a woman and using female pronouns could also be regarded as FoE brought into the workplace based on their beliefs, .

I think they do.

NC : Not fair to compromise 200 women to satisfy 1 man.
CM: Dr U identifies as a woman, that's how I think, so that's not what it was.

No more qq. Bad finish for CM, undoes a lot of the 'maybe she's a good egg' feeling I had about her - not all of it thought, as she does appear to have made more of an effort than anybody else.

I was literally in the middle of writing a post about the Workplace Regulations 1992 act!

It's UK wide legislation so I don't understand why NC isn't saying 'you've mentioned the EQA2010, what about the Workplace Regulations Act'

Oh and a rugby changing room isn't a work place so not under Regulations.

But yeah absolutely no reason a hijab wearing woman couldn't play women's rugby and not want to change in front of a man.

...assuming that's what this means who knows.

Think we've been told before they do apply in Scotland. (Workplace regulations)

CM does not want to be labelled a transphobe. She said she shared with trans rugby players but not that she was happy with it - implied but not stated. From AI "Scottish Rugby implemented a policy in February 2023 that restricts participation in contact rugby to those whose sex was recorded as female at birth." So she doesnt have to share now.

Hmm yes, how many objections does it take to make DU unreasonable?

And can she think of any reason women might not feel confident to object? I don't think she gave a very straight answer to that one.

It is clear as day that the only alternatives open to women who wanted a single sex changing space (as was their legal right) were to change in a toilet or something (unacceptable), go to use facilities in another area of the hospital (why should they when it's their changing room) or shut the fuck up and get over themselves (preferred option).

I wonder she has a trans child? 🤔

Panel have really lasered in on the risk assessment and its many issues...

The 1992 regulations apply across England, Wales and Scotland.

CM: Yes we went into the wellness room - there were a few tears, it was a difficult conversation, but I was glad to be able to explain to DU in person

this was telling DrU that SP would be returning to work. 'a few tears'🙄

NHS Fife busy typing up Statement explaining that the Loch Ness Monster ate all NHS Fife Equality Impact Assessments.

from herald
3:20pm
Is it the case that Ms Peggie loses her dignity and access to a single-sex space by having to go elsewhere to change? That is the question asked to Ms Myles by Ms Cunningham.
The barrister also asks whether it is right that a woman has to declare their history of sexual abuse or discomfort at changing in the same facilities as a trans person.
Ms Myles said women should not be forced to disclose their history.
Ms Cunningham, in her final question, asks whether it is fair that around 200 women are asked to make compromises to satisfy one transgender individual.
Ms Myles said it is her opinion that Dr Upton is a woman, so this assessment by the barrister is not correct.
She said everyone should be appropriately accommodated, but it is outwith her remit to suggest how this is done.

I would lay money on her referring to transmen, ie women identifying as men. Which would make her insistence that SHE changes in front of transgender people with no problem a bit rich, wouldn’t it?

From TT

NC: Some of your workforce have these considerations?
CM: Yes - but hospital does have other facilities, single cubicles, some further away yes but exist.
NC: ANd you won't know which of your staff have religious reasons? Or sexual trauma?
CM: No, wouldn't know always.
NC: So if a woman does have a reason for particularly wanting a single sex space? The policy was, she must lose the space, and go elsewhere?
CM: Management shd find a solution that works for everyone. Follow policy, legislation, do the best we can
NC: Thinking about it now - if women do have special reasons, it's not right they should have to go tell a manager? About sexual abuse?
CM: No - shd not have to disclose sexual abuse. But, this is a situation - evolving workforce, evolving world. Trying to do best for all parties
CM: Wd really have to think about this - can't answer now.
NC : Not fair to compromise 200 women to satisfy 1 man.
CM: Dr U identifies as a woman, that's how I think, so that's not what it was.
CM: Everybody shd be accommodated, but, how we do that is out of my remit. NC: No more questions.

P: We looked at a page, you said you'd met Beth and explained the RtW and wanted DU to hear from you. Can you say more?
CM: It's a workplace where things are discussed all the time, not always correctly, so wanted to explain to DU that it was my decision here, wanted to support both DU & SP. DU took it quite well, better than I'd expected.

P: You said "on shift"?
CM: Yes we went into the wellness room - there were a few tears, it was a difficult conversation, but I was glad to be able to explain to DU in person.

J: Did you see a RA doc re the original suspension?
CM: No
J: Did you ask for it?
CM: I asked for the original documents but they came later.
J: Who did you email?
CM: Angela Glancy
J: Did you email before or after your meeting?
CM: After.
J: More about the RA doc?
CM: It was intiated by Jamie Doyle. It's a logged doc - tracks changes.
J: Did you fill out all at once?
CM: Two sessions - did background the next day

J: When was this?
CM: I will have done the first bit the same day as it came from JD [they check] 9/4 and the background bit 10/4
J: You referred to poss of getting C back into workplace - is that kind of the default position? Or specific to SP? Or you were told to?
CM: Well we don't normally like to suspend ppl at all. And then we review every 4 weeks. So when it came to me, had already been one extension

They are a United Kingdom Statutory Instrument and apply everywhere.

This bit is about changing rooms.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/24

True trans believer then, but with a side hustle of professional bus chucker 😂