NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

I see we are in the MN equivalent of the Nervous Nineties in cricket - we are 925 not out and approaching the 1000 mark.

I have a suggestion:

will we give Nauticant a few months' holliers and suspend this series of threads until the Tribunal is about to start again?
When things start moving again somebody - probably Nauticant cos she's great like that - can start NHS/SP Thread #24.

In the meantime, we could start a general Ongoing SP/tribunals/NHS shitshow/how to remember your port from your starboard thread
Just a suggestion...

Listen, I had money on us reaching Thread 25 by the time the tribunal starts back up. I can't help but feel a sense of sabotage here 😂

What? Me accept manilla envelopes full of cash to sabotage your bet? How dare you!

Anyone else seen this? It’s a clip from an LGBTI 150 min conference on social change & activism, and Peggie’s case gets a mention. The man speaking on the video, I’ve seen him mentioned as part of the unison trans network who writes trans policies for NHS trusts - I can’t verify this as not got any links. But listen to him, he’s clearly rattled by Peggie’s case & is lamenting the days when he could ensure anyone i.e. women could be silenced via threats over claiming harassment if they spoke in favour of women’s rights or perspectives.

https://x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1904094734680817776?s=46

“Last month the NHS ran a 150 minute staff conference on 'LGBT+ activism and social change', which focused on the 'power of pronouns'. Dozens of NHS managers attended. It was dominated by this man talking about how terrible colleagues are if they don't say 'trans women are women'”

Happy to do a temporary relocation to give Nauticant a rest

Yes, I know there's the woolly area of how you're going to express it. And I'm not sure there's been a definitive answer about pronoun usage, so far. More's the pity.

My comment was more to do with my understanding that there are two protected characteristics involved, not just a Christian belief. There's also the Forstater ruling that protects disbelief in gender ideology.

Thanks, Knotty.

• If there are no howls of 'nooo! we need our thread #24 fix NOOOWWWWW!' * I'll start a 'pending #24' thread when this one hits page 39. I've never started a new thread like this before - it's funny, it feels like something that only proper grown-ups do

The Lib Dem conference was full of pro trans rights speeches too. Christine Jardine, the Lib Dem MP for Edinburgh West, was particularly strident. Shevis their spokesperson on Women and Equalities. I have a Lib dem female MP, Sarah Olney, and I would say she was reasonably supportive when I last wrote to her, but that was a while ago. She asked me to let her know if there were any examples of businesses in the constituency not offering same sex spaces as per the Equality Act. Trouble is my nearby town is not in her constituency. It is Ed Davies, and he is not interested in the slightest.

Thanks for the link I'm not sure I could stomach the whole conference. Those of us involved in the policy audit work have probably seen examples of his work. You don't need to read many to realise there are a lot of similarities.

I think you’re right, he’s been part of developing & delivering “trans inclusion” training at an NHS trusts plus has a lot of involvement in union representation etc. It’s no wonder women can’t get any support from management or unions.

https://www.combined.nhs.uk/about/our-board/board-members/jenny-harvey/

“Initially joining the Trust as a Healthcare Support Worker in Learning Disability Services, Jenny has worked in the NHS since 1988. She is currently also Chair of UNISON West Midlands Regional Health Committee and a Member of the UNISON National Health Service Group Executive.
Her chief areas of interest are around staff engagement, equality and inclusion, and she has led on a number of key projects including the implementation of Agenda for Change at local level, as well as developing and delivering Trans-inclusion training.”

Based on our policy audit these views don’t surprise me - but I agree that this person seems to be confused about what’s happening and that GC views have to be acknowledged… Marvellous that this recording exists as evidence of these completely discriminatory views - very incriminating to allow themselves to be recorded like this?

I'm happy to start the continuation thread #24 but if people want to have some other arrangement of threads, I'm be fine with that.

Is the plan to have a run of more chatty threads between now and July and then return to the "main series" of threads as the resumption of the hearing approaches?

I take it that person is a Man pretending to be a woman?
Despite the eye make up and the floral top?

So many grifters, so much bullshit.

@nauticant You have been absolutely brilliant and I'm really grateful for all that you do in running these threads. You've been amazing. As have been others diligently supporting the threads here.

How do YOU feel about setting them up over the coming months? I think we are all concerned about the marathon you have been running so far and if you are ok taking responsibility with them still? Defo an FWR long service medal needs awarding for all that you do. But no pressure from the rest of us here.

I'm completely happy to continue setting up the continuation threads. As we move towards Summer there'll be holiday absences but when those come up I can inform the thread and someone else can set up the threads. But it looks like I'll be around during the second part of the hearing in July and will definitely be on the threads at that time.

If you’re happy to carry on, I for one would love to keep all these musings and meanderings in one spot. Totally understand if others don’t, that’s just my preference.

There are a lot of cats and they're best herded in one place is my view.

Aptly put 🤣

guinnessguzzler · Today 09:48
Listen, I had money on us reaching Thread 25 by the time the tribunal starts back up. I can't help but feel a sense of sabotage here 😂

Clearly you got to Nauticant with a bigger manilla envelope

Seriously though - Vox populi, vox dei.
I'm happy to withdraw my suggestion about an Intermission Thread, and I'll leave it in Nauticant's capable hands to keep these threads running.

Thanks, Nauts. We all appreciate your efforts!

A highly motivated & very busy/connected man at that. His long list of ‘extra curricular activities’ within his job/trust/union covers a wide spectrum of things, all very strategically important to ensure the trans narrative dominates, no doubt. It must be frustrating that there’s a woman within the trust who is allowed to speak about women, in terms he can’t control completely, despite his best efforts.

I took early retirement from the Civil Service in 2008 and I am mighty glad that it was well before all this trans nonsense started.

Surely you mean Vox nauticant, vox dei?

May the cat herding continue apace!
I am grateful that these threads are here, I haven't been posting on them recently but pleased to know that they will continue, and that you are happy about that, @nauticant.