NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

The Live not by lies thread has a collection of links and quotations that explains it. It’s fear, exclusion and so many other tools of authoritarianism and social psychology.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/trans-killers-jail-rammy-leaves-34912548

Also in Scotland.

Is there a fighting fund? This is appalling treatment. Let’s send cards to the hospital

Is there a crowdfunder?

Sadly, this sentence stood out for me

No doubt other battles lie ahead.

Some people have sent Sandie Peggie supportive postcards c/o the hospital she works at. Postcards so she can be sure nothing nefarious is hidden in them and if others at her workplace read them? Well, that can't be helped, maybe they'll learn a thing or two. Perhaps Jennifer Melle might be cheered by some cards.

It looks like Christian Legal Centre is supporting her.

I think this nurse (Jennifer) has been treated appallingly and I note with interest a white nurse used male pronouns but this prisoner did nothing to her. So clearly a racist.

However I imagine the NMC and hospital will say what she did wrong was say to the patient her Christian faith meant she wouldn't use his preferred pronouns. It's madness but they will argue that is against their code of conduct.

And I think postcards are a good idea they seemed to really help Sandie feel supported

From that DailyvRecord article is note that Paris "is incarcerated in the women’s wing of HMP Edinburgh." Not was. Is.

I thought after the Bryson fiasco all the men convicted of violent or sexual crimes were supposed to have been moved. Was that only England & Wales? Or does the Scottish prison service not consider forcible anal penetration with a rolling pin followed by beating to death to be a violent or sexual crime?

@NoBinturongsHereMate it was the classic 'case by case' argument. Paris was not considered a threat even though he clearly is

I think it just England and Wales. There's another TiM in the women's wing of a Scottish prison. Stabbed and killed another man, has only had his madam's apple shaved as far as surgery goes, currently taking legal action against a woman prisoner for misgendering him.

If they are accused to violence against women they don't go to the female estate. If it is violence against men they are allowed to the female estate. Because obviously they are no threat (that's sarcasm by the way)

Paris Green continues to be held in the female prison estate under the updated SPS policy which allows violent males who have committed heinous acts to be housed with women. The SPS continue to prioritise the feelings of men over the safety of women.

https://news.sky.com/story/scottish-prison-service-publishes-new-policy-on-the-management-of-transgender-people-in-custody-13022906

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-revised-scottish-prison-service-transgender-prisoner-policy-is-not-fit-for-purpose/

What bizarre 'logic', that transwomen will not be housed in women's prisons if they have been violent towards women and girls, but they are somehow less dangerous if they were violent towards other men?

If you're violent, you're violent. You may pick on women and girls, you may pick on someone your own size, but you've shown yourself to be a violent man, full stop.

The idea that a man found guilty of violence against another man is safe around women is ridiculous.

Thanks for sharing that @Myalternate It certainly makes me lose even more respect for the NHS. It's a disgrace but it's also just embarrassing for them.

id like to think the offence he’s now admitted to - violent behaviour towards female staff - should result in him being moved back to the male estate. But I’ve zero confidence the SPS would do that.

The whole thing is a sham. The trans activists have gotten the SPS process stitched up completely.

This is Scotland your talking about he won't be sent back to a mens prison as he's already been assessed as safe to be in a woman's prison and his plee deal he was only convicted of recklessly causing injury rather than assault so no need to reassess or move him

The Mail is introducing a paywall? But I would no more give money to the Mail than I would to the (current) Guardian.

The Mail+ articles are usually paywalled, but they are often archived if you search for them on archive.ph (and the option to archive yourself is there).

Yup, it’s a stitch up to prevent any reassessment or move to a male prison.

The SPS mentioned at a committee meeting or similar a while ago that they were no longer going to confirm the numbers or any relevant details of any so-called ‘trans’ prisoners so it wouldn’t be possible to see the numbers of larping men in the female estate & they’re following through with that in relation to this case too:

https://x.com/lucyhunterb/status/1903827319824793817?s=46

“The Scottish Prison Service quite literally has a policy which assumes that violent sadists who have so far only attacked men would be far too respecting of women to threaten or attack one of those.

https://x.com/lucyhunterb/status/1903828161961300350?s=46

“One of these chivalrous types has now attacked a woman prison officer. And the Scottish prison service is resisting the attempt to establish whether or not this male prisoner is still being held with women.”

Ta, just hadn't seen that before. I'm up to speed with archiving, though.

I initially read the article in the Times but was too busy to post it at the time, then I found the article on Overit (sp?)
I don’t read the Mail but I can fully appreciate that they have been prepared to put their heads above the parapet when the MSM try their very best to prevent this kind of article being printed at all.

It's my understanding that their code of conduct cannot endorse discrimination, whatever it says.

She's protected by her Christian belief, but isn't she also protected by the Maya Forstater ruling?

Whether they choose to use or not, you can't discriminate against someone on the basis of that ruling.

Would any other aggressive patient be treated with kid gloves in the way that we are expected to treat trans identifying men now? Or would Security have shown them the door?

I think we are getting threads mixed up here. But it appears to be always the same - nurse goes about doing her job. Transwoman finds something, anything to complain about. Nurse gets suspended.

Thank goodness we are beginning to fight back.

You can't discriminate against someone for having a belief. You may be able to discriminate against someone for the expression of that belief. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that blood transfusions are sinful. If a JW becomes a doctor, they cannot be discriminated against for holding that belief. However, if they refuse to give a life-saving blood transfusion to a patient, they can be disciplined for that failure notwithstanding the fact that it was driven by a protected belief.

This is therefore not a simple question of saying that GC beliefs are protected and therefore you don't have to use someone's preferred pronouns. Having said that, it would, in my view, be unreasonable to discipline a nurse for insisting on using a patient's first name when talking to them rather than their preferred pronouns. It would also, in my view, be unreasonable to discipline a nurse for failing to use the patient's preferred pronouns when talking to other medical professionals, particularly in a situation where the sex of the patient is important, as was the case here.