NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

Frankenfurter (aside from being an alien) described himself as a transvestite, retained a male name and was referred to as “he”.

@TwoLoonsAndASprout isn't Jorgenson also the surname of the only NHS Fife HR person to speak sense?

NHS Fife staff receive a monthly communication from the Chief Exec; this month’s (sent out yesterday) mentions the tribunal (copied & pasted excerpt below):

I want to take a moment to acknowledge the challenging period we are navigating as an
organisation. The ongoing and highly publicised employment tribunal in recent weeks has understandably generated a great deal of interest and debate, both in the media and online.
With the hearing now being extended into July, I fully appreciate the impact this continued scrutiny is having on colleagues across NHS Fife.
For obvious reasons, we are unable to comment on legal proceedings. As a public sector body, we are bound by strict legal and ethical responsibilities, which means we cannot engage in public debate through blogs, media briefings, or social media. However, I want to reassure you that NHS Fife remains committed to fairness, integrity, and respect for all involved.
Much of what is reported in the media or discussed online does not reflect the full picture.
At the heart of this situation are valued members of NHS Fife staff and it is essential that they are treated with dignity, respect, and kindness.
As an organisation, we place our trust in the independent legal process and will await its
ruling in due course.

I was thinking of the erotic cross-dressing, which nowadays provokes more of a 'ugh' response.

I guess because then it was either strictly private, or part of a stylised burlesque. Whereas now it's everywhere, including really inappropriate places, and we're all just prudes if we object.

Her wit and way with words was a true breath of fresh air. My favourite was the quote that ended 'that their brains fell out'. The first time I heard it I laughed 😅. I just can't remember what the first bit was now.

"Their minds are so open that their brains have fallen out"

Yes that's it, thanks Squeaky. She had a real gift in her unoque delivery of these words too. A truly inspiring young woman who knew what was going on so clearly.

Re the Chief Exec’s statement, surely all the media etc comment relies on what is in the public domain via the ET? What does she mean about “not the full picture”? However you slice that statement, it reads like a swipe at Sandie.

Referring back to what forms 'gender-non-conforming' took in the past - the other day there was outrage from the trans community because the National Monuments website in the USA had removed references to the transgender involvement in the 1969 Stonewall Riots in New York - described as the birth of the modern gay rights movement. This is due to the Trump administration's instruction to remove trans references from official material.
It now refers only to the lesbian and gay movement and has removed the T from LGBTQ++.

OUTRAGE from the TRAs!
This is ironic: claiming as they do that it was transwomen who were front and centre at the 1969 riots, and festooning the Stonewall Bar with wall-to-wall trans and 'Progress' flags, caused outrage amongst historians, and amongst the gay people who were actually there in 1969.

Transgenderism hadn't even been invented then, so it was a shocking rewriting of history to claim that transwomen were the 'heroines' on the night. The fact that a couple of Stonewall survivors now identify as transwomen is neither here nor there to the events in 1969.

Contemporaneous reports did say that the 'sissies' and 'nellies' - their own words for themselves - played an important role, including embarrassing the police with their 'verbals', but the 'sissies' and 'nellies' were gay men, some of whom were transvestites for fun, some for work i.e. drag artistes. They referred to each other as 'she', but that was just an in-crowd kind of thing.
They identified clearly as gay men, outrageously camp gay men, but men.

I think we all know that what is publicly available isn't reflective of the full story - that's exactly what NC has been saying and hence why there have been repeated requests for them to make full disclosure according to the judicial requirements.

Funny for them to say that with no insight into what it sounds like to the rest of us.

If "Much of what is reported in the media or discussed online does not reflect the full picture." isnt that just because NHS FIFE have deliberately withheld the whole picture until forced into revealing it.

I dont see Sandie being treated with any "dignity, respect, and kindness." If I worked for NHS FIFE that would really piss me off.

Much of what is reported in the media or discussed online does not reflect the full picture.

Yes, because you are withholding evidence. Fuckers!

I have a trans family member so have been involved with trans people for over twenty years. I can tell you the way it is now is nothing like it was then. The trans people I knew were all aware they were not the opposite sex but it made them feel better to be treated as if they were. They were not offended by misgendering and they didn't use single sex spaces. They were also a tiny number of people.

Today I was in a meeting with a man in a very bad wig who kept wittering on about queer spaces and about how terrible Wes streeting is for his anti trans statements. That man was barely in his twenties and we were all expected to sit and listen to him

This is why Tribunal Tweets is so important. Thousands have read exactly what’s been said.

Dr Az Hakeem gives a succinct overview of the psychopathology of trans. I feel like he'd be a useful expert witness in some upcoming court cases, and maybe to advise the Scottish Govt. next time they want to mess around with legislation. Longer video available on YouTube.

Now that the Scottish government has said that organisations can exclude trans people from single sex changing rooms if "necessary" (hadn't read the GRR bill they passed?), can I ask those with HR knowledge how they find out if an employee is trans? Is it on the paperwork a) with or b) without a GRC? Does the trans person have to tell them? Presumably they can't just tell them they look male, even if staff complain?
Sorry to ask a simple question, but I've been wondering.

That is exactly why our HR have said our toilets are single gender. They say the legal team have told them there is no way to police single sex spaces. Basically men won't respect boundaries so it's easier to just not have any

Rows of cubicles with doors, used by males and females.
From a parents perspective it means your kids can be in the cubicle next to you and you can still talk to them. Regardless of age and sex.

Ones near me have been adapted to prevent pervs from putting cameras under the cubicle wall and they can no longer stand on the bench putting cameras over the top.

I do wonder how many HR and facilities teams are rapidly reviewing their policies regarding toilets and getting legal advice.

If I recall, back in the day, before anyone was allowed to undergo cross-sex surgery, they had to have extensive therapy to ensure that they completely understood that they would not actually be changing sex, that they probably would not pass, and that their lives would not necessarily be easier afterwards.

I also feel like a lot of the world hasn’t realised that those old-school transsexuals are not what we are dealing with these days.

Yep, we have a family friend who transitioned in the early noughties, having been v GNC for several years prior. They absolutely never suggested we should all believe they actually were a woman, that they are in some way biologically female etc. They asked to be referred to by a different name and I genuinely think of them as that now and have done for a very long time now. I still would never think of them "as a woman" though, and they know that and have never inferred that's a problem for them at all.

The difference in the landscape, the rhetoric, the coercion and the outright lies is like chalk and cheese.

I genuinely feel for them and can't believe the harm that's been done in their name really, when they ever asked for any of this.

That's like a school report card - says lots but tells you nothing.
Get to the point NHS Fife are cock n balls allowed in the fannies rooms?

The Beaumont Society, Press for Change etc have been working towards what we have now for decades.

This behavior is not new, it's just that they* couldn't get away with it before.

*Obviously NATPALT

At the risk of sounding too depressing, probably hardly anyone has been following this, outside Reddit, X and here. I have a very dear friend who is GC but not engaged with the day to day things that are going on: she's a feminist lawyer and she's Scottish, and I would have thought both those things would predispose her to pick up on this story. Nope, she had not a clue.