NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

The irony of BBC reporting on moral cowardice...

There was a scene in the film Cabaret where a person in a wig, makeup and a ballgown goes into the Gents, and the character played by Michael York, looks down, to check whether he has the right equipment. He would probably have been regarded as a cross dresser, so that was 1930s.

Someone mentioned Josephine Tey - I have read a lot of her works and don't remember any trans characters.

The men insisting that they are laydies, and being entitled to barge into women's loos seems to have come about since the turn of the Century.

Anyone else ever been approached by a guy saying you arent safe on your own, I'll come with you and make sure you get home OK? This happened to me when younger and my quick assessment was he was genuine so I let him walk with me. It obviously had not occurred to him I might see him as a danger 😃

Who would have thought...
https://fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/

My daughter recently moved in with her boyfriend. She starts work at 7.30am and he genuinely thought she could cycle to work. The route would take her past a golf club - the whole length of it is completely open, no fencing, and full of bushes and trees. I said no way - she is a bit of a people pleaser and didn't want to disappoint him, as his family is sports mad and thinks cycling is the obvious thing to do. He was mortified when i pointed out the golf club. So anyway she gets the bus.

I'm comparing to pre-1920s, so I suppose before modern medicine, then experimental surgery on Lili Elbe and then people like Jan Morris, and then the advent of puberty blocking.

Each is a step change that influences how people think about the possibility of changing sex.

However I agree that there are many different influences, and many people identify as trans with no intention of ever having any surgery or medication.

There were of transvestites (men) and female cross dressers in the past. In the Cabaret period in Germany heterosexual men could get a Transvestite Pass from the police that protected them from harassment, which didn't quite get abolished by the Nazis, though they were a bit worried it might be a cover for homosexuals who they did not tolerate.

Gender didn't exist.

And hardly any transsexualism, except for the experiments by that bloke who went on to be one of the Nazi doctors in Dachau.

They're plot devices, so spoiler-y. If you really want to know, I can pm you.

No, I've googled, and they seem to have been cross dressers, so completely different from the 'gender' idea that has been invented recently.

I worked for a while with someone in the 1970s who was saving for surgery, I think in Tangier. It was apparently very expensive, I don’t know if he ever managed it. He was a pleasant, diffident guy who wouldn’t have called himself a woman - he said he was (or wished to be) a transsexual. He was a tall, well-built man who had worked previously in a very male-dominated job that required considerable power and strength.
I met a couple of other transsexuals in the 1980s. I have no idea what treatments they had. One seemed to model his appearance on Mrs Thatcher, which was weird.

I remember watching this BBC documentary as each part aired. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04frg16 I always remember (trigger warning) that Julia was post op and had a bleed. The treatment they received in A & E was traumatic and effectively destroyed what the surgeons had created. That fact has stayed with me.

I also worked in a organisation where a TW also worked over two decades ago. I recall proofreading gender reassignment guidance c2004 that was written to coincide with the GRA.

I am no academic but I recall reading a paper which I can’t find about Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD) and how it was different to the historical presentations from the 1970s and before. Essentially it was pre-school children whose parents first sought help that were when gender dysphoria first presented not the older age group. GIDS was set up in 1989 so there must have been the demand then.

WRT films two come to mind Priscilla Queen of the Desert (1994) and Tootsie (1982). The latter was a straight actor, Dustin Hoffman, passing as a female actor. He wasn’t transgender but it wasn’t drag either.

In my very limited experience there have been for decades people with gender dysphoria/incongruence etc. They were small in number and very much tried to blend in. I believe this tiny cohort have been damaged by the widening of the trans umbrella and stonewalls campaign.

I firmly believe that there are only two sexes and you can’t change sex and this must be enshrined in law. However, I also believe a tiny number of people may have gender dysphoria/incongruence and I see no reason why they should be discriminated against which is why I support separating sex and gender identity in law. The difficulty is Malaga Airport.

If I were to take the shortcut and be brave etc. you can be sure if a man attacked me or worse, it would be MY fault for not taking the well lit main road or equivalent.

Like rape trials of old - you asked for it by wearing those clothes. Maybe it's still the same.

I'm back in again to say, once more, that I've caught up. It's been, once more, an absolute and utter🎢. I read about the now, thankfully, postponed disciplinary with a 🤯. Sandie is peaking people everywhere. Thank you @nauticant for the 21st time for your diligent thread-keeping.

I myself began my journey to peakdom at the time of the campaign to repeal the 8th amendment here in Ireland in 2018. I went to a celebratory lunch and amongst the speakers was a young, camp, blue-haired man who proclaimed his queerness and how much having access to abortion was going to benefit him. I remember thinking "hmmm, can't see you needing one, sunshine", cringing at his repeated use of the word "queer" #stillaslur and just feeling a bit off at the way he was derailing the speeches away from centering women. Shortly afterwards, I found FWR, then Maya's case and JKR's support for her sorted out my thinking for good.

They both seem to have been living in an acquired gender though, for psychological, and non-sexual, reasons, rather than practical ones (cf James Barry).

How do people feel now about Rocky Horror, which was explicitly sexual even at the time, and yet somehow seemed harmless?

Or Orange is the new Black? Were people upset when that came out, with a man in a women's gaol?

My dad worked in the merchant navy in the 50s. All the catering stewards on the ships were transvestites. As my dad told me "they put on their finery and went out into town when the ship docked docked". They were completely accepted - the other men weren't beating them up, they were their shipmates and part of the ship's company.

And it was the done thing, apparently, to become a steward on a ship if you were a transvestite. Later it led to gay men joing Airlines as cabin crew - the role of steward on journeys abroad having opportunities denied to them at home was well established.

But they didn't dress up on the ships other than to go out.

But they didn't dress up on the ships other than to go out.

And presumably not barging into women's loos, or entering women's sports competitions, insisting like Dr Upton that they are women. He knows he's not, we all know he's not.

One of my boyfriends, back in the day was a member of the Household Cavalry, who enjoyed dressing up in womens clothes, but he knew he was a man, fo sure.

What can I say? we were young and louche and enjoyed podium dancing, together.

It always strikes me as odd when men - completely innocent and just going about their own business it transpires - don't pick up on the anxiety they're causing by following too close, sticking behind rather than taking an opportunity to cross over or overtake etc. The lack of awareness or insight just further underlines the sex differences.

I've name changed for this as I've shared it before on MN but this is the situation I go back to in my head when this subject comes up

A few years ago (COVID times) I got into couch to 5k and running a lot (what else was there to do?!) and used the time my DC were at a sports club to do my runs. One night I dropped them off but chatted before setting off and mistimed my run so that the canalside wooded beauty spot that I usually ran through in the light,.was surprisingly dark and remote when I got there.

As I ran further into the spinney, the dusky light was completely drowned out by the tree cover and I was on high alert, regretting my choices and desperate to get back out to somewhere lighter and with other people around. At this point of heightened anxiety, 2 blokes suddenly appeared right behind me, having joined the path from a side cut through. I exclaimed/screamed and lost control of my breathing and went into full panic mode. In this few seconds I foresaw myself raped, murdered, hidden in undergrowth and my children being looked after by bewildered other mums when I didn't get back to pick them up....before the family being told the news by police etc etc. All ridiculous in hindsight but many women will have been in very similar situations - fully aware that making one risky choice led to this scenario.

As it was the 2 men immediately realised what I thought and why, moved ahead of me and talked to me from ahead, reassured me I was safe, told me they were going to keep running but stay ahead but nearby until we were back on the main route and under streetlights. They kept talking deliberately audibly between themselves, ran steadily about 20 metres ahead of me and made sure I wasn't left too far back in the dark as I sobbed along behind them.

It's actually tearing me up thinking about them. I was SO scared, and they were SO kind but they made it so clear they got it and by being so deliberate to keep their distance and be blatantly loud etc made me feel so safe.

I've told lots of male friends that if they're ever in a situation where they're concerned they've caused the anxiety - be blatant and name it, say "I'm just going to cross the road and walk ahead of you" etc

I even do it now, if I'm running or cycling behind someone and think they're not aware of my approach, I call out, "I'm just coming up behind you, don't want to scare you" in a cheery voice.

ETA - I think for me, that's why hearing DU insist on his certainty that he would approach a woman who had asked from same sex care, and talking about facing SP down when she screwed up her courage to beg for privacy, is so so upsetting. Knowing that good, kind, respectful men will bend over backwards to make things as ok as they can (even though they know they have no ill intent and would not cause harm) just highlights how horrendous DU's behaviour has been.

The men in my scenario weren't offended, they didn't take offence or feel affronted. They did what they could to get us all out of an awkward situation.

I posted about that documentary a few threads ago, it is on BBC iplayer too, all 5 episodes (A Change of Sex).

There is definitely a bit of the three letter acronym (Malaga airport type) with that person. He talks extensively about loving the way his "bust" wobbles when he walks, about his fascination with "women's clothes" etc.
It's a shame what happened to him re. the operation, but I couldn't quite help a bit of distaste when he talks about getting married to a man and adopting children and being a "mother" when it was revealed that he actually HAD two children from his first marriage that he never sees, and when asked about any financial responsibilities in order to pay for treatment/surgery, he says "apart from electrolysis, no"....as in, he does not support his children but is quite willing to acquire two more in his new role as a "woman" and "mother".

It just struck me as something the transwidows talk about all the time. Complete obsession with transitioning and throwing their family under the bus.

I also found the drag stuff and hyper sexualised chat when he was working in the clubs, really distasteful and grim.

I definitely watched it this time with a new pair of eyes than I did when it was first aired decades ago. Thanks to this forum I dare say!

There is an article in the Times today by a woman training for the marathon describing the harassment she has received (she has been followed home even) and how male runners don't get it.

@HootyMcBoobs I haven’t rewatched the documentary so my memories are 30-40 years old. I can believe if I rewatched it I would have a different view.

@BinBadger , your description of how scared you were and how kind, understanding and practical they were made me tear up too.

The open changing rooms you get in a big leisure centre where there is no division between make and female changing, and there are family changing rooms too.

Also, using cross dressers in literature who are there as a plot device (eg Sherlock Holmes) as an example of “trans people have always been around,” is so disingenuous.

Also! And I do not have the article to hand and will probably miss-remember details, but:

After “Christine Jorgensen,” the WWII veteran who underwent one of the first (the first?) “sex reassignment” surgeries, was introduced to the world as “a woman,” either he or his surgeon was inundated by letters from people who wanted the surgery. The letters fell very grossly into a limited number of categories, a large one of which was lesbians who wanted to quietly live with their partners without the world getting on their cases.

I agree: women crossdressing in order to do something that they could not do unless they were seen as men are not trans. And I am as annoyed as you at their appropriation as such.