NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

I'm surprised she hasn't picked it up. This is the current BBC Scotland page. All the newspapers on newspaper stands couple of days ago had headlines about it and a Google search brings up dozens of articles (news, opinion etc) across all newspapers about it and the Scottish Daily Express being threatened with Police action has caught a lot of noise too.

It genuinely feels like this has finally caught the public's attention in a way it hadn't before.

Asking for a friend (because I'm not a legal bod).

There has surely been enough in the press (or the law, maybe) to suggest that blokes need to return to their lane.

Meanwhile NHS Fife ploughs on?

Re: the discussion about “soft law” in the Menno Phillimore interview. Do any legal people here know what it means, please? It sounds like using policy and non~judicial powers to enforce external compliance. But if a barrister uses that phrase it feels alarming. (Context a conference on trans rights.)

Change of name question: does anyone know if Upton has actually changed his name by deed poll? If he doesn’t have a GRC and nor has he legally changed his name, on what basis would a court treat him as either female or as a person with a different name to the one he was born with? I just wonder if either hospital or the court has checked if the doctor is really now ‘Elizabeth/Beth’.

I’m looking at the Gazette for name changes for Upton but there’s nothing. You can apply to not have your name change listed, but surely those in charge will have asked for proof that he has done so?

I'd think Beth must be his legal name or he wouldn't be under oath with that name.

TBF I've been thinking the same about Sandie, if it wasnt for being in court I would have assumed Sandie was a nickname and her legal name Alexandra or Sandra.

Dustin Hoffman's character in Tootsie pretended to be a woman purely to get a job. Nothing to do with any of this.

Incidentally, I read a very interesting interview with him about it. When he had the first makeup session as the Dorothy character he looked in the mirror, laughed, and said to the make up team it was good prank, now let's try the proper version.

He'd expected to be beautiful, and they had to cautiously explain to him that - given their starting material (him) - that was as good as it got. He said it really made him think about how he viewed women, because up to that point he'd somehow assumed that their level of attractiveness was a choice and just a matter of how much effort they made.

Blimey - I had to go and do all the work I missed while watching TT and these threads during the hearing and - you've finished thread 20 and are nearly a quarter through 21?!

I confess I haven't read every post to catch up. But thanks to the PPs who noted about how telling the differences between male and female is instinctive and not something that can simply be turned off or unlearned. Also that women are usually attacked because they are women more than robbery/random acts of violence that affect men. Can something similar be said about men having an instinct for violence? I saw a video of a cat looking at a mouse on a laptop screen - the cat wanted to pounce. After all the talk of the case I wondered if this was a useful metaphor for men and women but I haven't had time to think about it.

I found another interesting article from the Scottish Daily Express:
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/john-swinney-under-pressure-break-34695340?int_source=nba
"Taxpayer-funded bodies must follow the law as it stands—not as they wish it to be."

The Repeal the GRC petition is now over 10,000 so hopefully it will keep going upwards towards 100,000 by its end date in August. In about an hour this evening it had jumped up about 40 signatures which seems promising if it keeps going.

Anyway by the time I get back to this thread it might be finished at the rate you are going! I'll see you in thread 22! Thanks all for the excellent commentary - I don't know how you will keep up the pace until July.

He has definitely changed his name as he has registered with the GMC under new name and that requires an ID check

Upton as far as I know was born in Scotland. If so he wouldn't need to change name by deed poll and advertise in the Gazette. He may have registered his change of name with the Registrar General which would amend his birth certificate. He may not have done that. I don't know what proof of change of name the GMC needed to change his registration. Very little it seems to change his gender if he has no GRC.

No need for deed poll if he was born in Scotland. There is a procedure to amend your birth certificate with the Registrar General to change name. Basically you can change your name provided no intention to defraud.

@AAT65
"Basically you can change your name provided no intention to defraud."

Define 'defraud'!

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's still an "expletive" duck even if it is called Geraldine Giraffe.

He was born in Scotland, and Sandie is not short for anything! Playing at scotlandspeople dot gov is fun 😉

I agree.

Although I instinctively knew that, say, so-called TW shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's sports, and was dimly aware it was a bad idea to medically 'transition' children, and that TW are not actual women, - it wasn't until I joined MN last year that I thought about the issue all that much, because it's not something which affects me directly or anyone I know.

I'd also always been fine with old-school transsexuals or transvestites or men like Izzard who (seemingly) just liked to dress a bit girly.

But until MN, I hadn't fully engaged and wasn't fully aware of the poisonous ideology which has been ongoing in the past decade or more. I was slightly aware, at least, which is more than most.

The Peggie case has now fully opened my eyes, and I hope it will result in many more now seeing the light, as the case so clearly exposes the stark insanity of it all, with Upton, so obviously a biological man, declaring himself to be a biological woman, and the witch hunt against a nurse of 30 years' unblemished service to the NHS.

Agreed, Tribunal Tweets is important but no written word can replace being able to watch DU spouting the genderwang live.

It was the epitome of let them speak.

Has anyone seen a mainstream news source actually quoting DU's fem-bot / nebu-dog-whistle speeches directly?

It's so patronising and cringemakingly awful.. CALM DOWN LITTLE PEOPLE THE BOSSES HAVE IT ALL UNDER CONTROL, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES READ ANYTHING BAD ABOUT US ON THE INFORMATION SUPERHIGHWAY.

He uses Elisabeth on GMC and on a couple of work publications. Being known as Beth at work adds an extra layer of protection against people looking him up I guess. Or, at least, it did until this happened.

I remember in the 80's there was a transwoman (though clearly no one would have used that word then) who used to catch the same bus as me each morning going to school. we never spoke and my only thought towards him was sadness. He seemed old (but I was a teenager so that could have been 35) ,about 6ft 2 and dressed like a tv 1950s grumpy spinster in lace and white gloves. It seemed to me tragic that he had put so much effort into looking like a women but failed so spectacularly. A few years later when I went out in the gay area of Manchester one of my favourite pubs was the one where the transvestites hung out - not drag queen over the top, much more muted and it made me happy they had somewhere to go where they could be safe. They were definitely around but It all seemed so simple, unthreatening and reasonable then.

🙄🙄🙄 here you go.

Excellent and broad-ranging article here. Focuses on SNP’s lunacy and Scottish Labour’s cowardice.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14410505/EUAN-McCOLM-Neil-Graystays-quiet-single-sex-changing-rooms.html

And in advance to the “I’m not clicking on a Daily Fail link” crowd, fuck off, I’ll read and post what I damn well please.

Yes I remember a guy who used to hang around Byres rd in Glasgow in a floral dress when I was a student. He just seemed like a harmless tragic curiosity.

This new manifestation of trans is terrifying.

Seems to be less of that on here these days, but seeing particular papers as good/bad must have been a massive part of the problem historically on this issue. Am grateful for FWR for opening my eyes on this!

My first job was in a bank, it would’ve been around 1997/98 - one day suddenly all of the other staff disappeared into the back leaving me alone on the till. I served the only customer who was an odd looking man with straggly hair and a ladies jumper, it wasn’t really anything out of the ordinary as it was in a big city and lots of odd people came in through the day, when he had left they came back out and told me he was ‘Miss Tracey’ and he’d come in with a deed poll to change his name to a woman’s name and the manager had had to go into a meeting room alone with him and she was so scared, and no one ever wanted to serve him.

@Merrymouse I've just received this, in a daily legal email newsletter .......it gives me hope that the tide is certainly turning

Sarwar questions SNP's gender reform
Anas Sarwar, the Scottish Labour leader, has expressed regret over his support for the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, stating he was “too trusting” of the SNP Government. He believes the legislation, which allows individuals to change their legal gender without a medical diagnosis, fails to protect single-sex spaces for women. Sarwar remarked: “If we had gone through that process again, we wouldn't have done it the way we did,” highlighting the need for stronger amendments. He also addressed concerns raised by NHS Fife nurse Sandie Peggie regarding sharing changing rooms with a transgender doctor, asserting that “no nurse should be going to any employment tribunals because of changing rooms.”