Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/02/2025 23:49

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Calyx72 · 21/02/2025 11:32

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/law-pod-uk/id1259360349?i=1000679967231

Apologies if this has been shared before. Helpful legal chat re employers and the gender critical employee.

Calyx72 · 21/02/2025 11:33

audioboom.com/posts/8622081-gender-critical-belief-a-legal-debrief

Webpage for the same podcast if you are not Apple.

IDareSay · 21/02/2025 11:35

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 21/02/2025 11:28

🤮

And I remember Maya Forstater faced a police investigation for tweeting about this doctor:

"When a male doctor publicly boasted of intimately examining female patients without their informed consent, the only person whom the Metropolitan Police saw fit to investigate was a woman who pointed it out. The whole state apparatus meant to safeguard women from such abuses has now been turned against those of us who stand up against them."

unherd.com/newsroom/why-is-the-met-police-investigating-me-for-a-tweet-about-a-trans-doctor/

NebulousDogBollocking · 21/02/2025 11:45

And I remember Maya Forstater faced a police investigation for tweeting about this doctor:

Perhaps it's as well I don't say what I was going to about what he said then. But I'm sure you'll all be having similar thoughts.

delvar · 21/02/2025 11:47

WarriorN · 21/02/2025 09:08

God complex

What's the difference between God and a consultant doctor?

God thinks he's a Consultant doctor.

Needspaceforlego · 21/02/2025 11:52

IDareSay · 21/02/2025 11:27

And this was the interview:

https://bjgp.org/content/67/660/313

" A lot of my patients were quite conservative — many female patients wore long clothes, or the hijab — but they allowed me to examine them despite my change. In fact, after my transition, they even allowed me to perform more intimate examinations that they did not let me to do when I was a male GP. Every single one of them refused my offer of a chaperone even when they knew that I am transgender. After the positive experience on my first day back to work, I remembered having tears in my eyes during my drive home. I was overwhelmed with emotions, and they were tears of happiness. I could not recall the last time I felt this happy."

What the Actual Fuck!

How can anyone's family be proud of that?

duc748 · 21/02/2025 11:54

mrshoho · 21/02/2025 11:06

This surely compromises the entire DBS system in that case. And to think how close we were to selfID. Which government department has responsibility for DBS?

I'm amazed that more is not made of this. Have we even got it right since Ian Huntley, let alone the trans aspect?

Bunpea · 21/02/2025 11:56

Chersfrozenface · 21/02/2025 10:20

The "process" is the individual voluntarily telling the DBS their previous name or names.

hopeless, and shocking. That must not be allowed to stand.

IDareSay · 21/02/2025 12:02

Bunpea · 21/02/2025 11:56

hopeless, and shocking. That must not be allowed to stand.

For those who may be fairly new to this DBS issue, Kate Coleman of KPSS wrote a comprehensive report. Recommended reading.

I have grave concerns that as we move towards 'digital identities' these falsehoods will become embedded and we will never recover.

"The DBS grants enhanced privacy rights to individuals who change their gender when changing their identity. These are exceptional rights that are only granted to individuals from this group. The result is that identity verification is compromised, meaning that there is no guarantee that the information returned during the check and displayed on the certificate will be accurate or complete.
These exceptional privacy rights also allow an applicant who has changed gender to request that all their previous names are withheld from the DBS certificate that is issued. This right to conceal previous identities is not given to anyone else: disclosing previous identities is a key component of safeguarding and DBS certificates issued to all other individuals display all other names the applicant has used.
Applicants who change their gender are also permitted to conceal their sex and the DBS certificate issued will display their acquired gender instead. This right is not granted to any other individual: the importance of sex to safeguarding means that for all other applicants, their sex is always displayed."

kpssinfo.org/dbs-checks-identity-verification/

duc748 · 21/02/2025 12:04

And they say, "Trans rights now!" 🙄

Bunpea · 21/02/2025 12:09

With the GMC’s shenanigans hiding a doctor’s trans status and any previous restrictions and suspensions, I am now clear I want to avoid all trans medical practitioners.

Question: How do I find out if a doctor is trans (I.e. in advance, at time of making an appointment, without the benefit of eyeballing him)?

I wondered about searching birth certs, but the GRA allows them to be updated and re-issued to replace a persons legal sex with their ‘gender’ after transition and a GRC.

However, the UK’s Birth Register, which is the ORIGINAL record from which birth certs are created, is NOT updated, and retains the original sex-at-birth information. Bingo! Problem: according to Chat GPT, the Birth Register is not accessible to the public.

Anyone else with ideas on how to find out in advance if a doctor is trans?

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 21/02/2025 12:11

Medicine is not my background so I am unfamiliar with how the disciplinary process for doctors works.

Streeting has described the outward process where the GMC can issue a new registration number to a doctor hiding previous disciplinary action.

Are there actions that could be a disciplinary matter for one sex but not for the other? Could a doctor be disciplined for a non-consensual action as a male that would be considered consensual if he changed gender to female?

JustBitetheKnotsOff · 21/02/2025 12:17

IDareSay · 21/02/2025 11:27

And this was the interview:

https://bjgp.org/content/67/660/313

" A lot of my patients were quite conservative — many female patients wore long clothes, or the hijab — but they allowed me to examine them despite my change. In fact, after my transition, they even allowed me to perform more intimate examinations that they did not let me to do when I was a male GP. Every single one of them refused my offer of a chaperone even when they knew that I am transgender. After the positive experience on my first day back to work, I remembered having tears in my eyes during my drive home. I was overwhelmed with emotions, and they were tears of happiness. I could not recall the last time I felt this happy."

That does remind me of the transwoman who came on here a few years ago to say that honestly, they had been in the women's pool and in women's changing rooms, and it was absolutely fine, nobody had minded.

No concept whatever of whether women who had minded had silently got out and got on with their day, or tied themselves in knots trying not to show that they minded, or tried to persuade themselves that they didn't mind (like the girls at my daughters' old school, where 'the transboys all seem to use the gender-neutral loos, mum, but the transgirls go in the girls', fully encouraged by written policy). DD was halfway to persuading herself that she genuinely didn't mind being intruded on by these boys she'd known from 11. Then she encountered a 6-ft male stranger in a college loo and backed out instinctively -- and worried that she'd hurt his feelings.

She's full-on TERF now and it's not led by me, just by reality. I'm careful what I say as we have trans family.

(Some of the women that GP mentions may have been genuinely happy to have male or female care as long as it was acceptable to their community -- and I'm guessing that transwomen are?)

RedToothBrush · 21/02/2025 12:26

Question: Do you think that saying you are female for a intimate examination, potentially is stealthing/sexual assault through deception, because a woman asking for a female only practitioner, is effectively NOT consenting to a male?

Therefore, in theory, I wonder if the legal could be this:
A doctor who doesn't actively declare this, is in breech of the law and hospitals should be telling staff that if they are trans they have an obligation to excuse themselves from single sex requests, but they can't actively as a matter of point tell individuals they can't perform the proceedure because would be outing them. Thus if they have reason to believe someone is doing this, they have to go to the police rather than deal with the matter internally because they might be in breech of employment law. Its becomes a criminal versus civil matter.

Or something like that.

I think they maybe need to be looking at this, because the hospital potentially still would be liable in such scenarios.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 21/02/2025 12:33

RedToothBrush · 21/02/2025 12:26

Question: Do you think that saying you are female for a intimate examination, potentially is stealthing/sexual assault through deception, because a woman asking for a female only practitioner, is effectively NOT consenting to a male?

Therefore, in theory, I wonder if the legal could be this:
A doctor who doesn't actively declare this, is in breech of the law and hospitals should be telling staff that if they are trans they have an obligation to excuse themselves from single sex requests, but they can't actively as a matter of point tell individuals they can't perform the proceedure because would be outing them. Thus if they have reason to believe someone is doing this, they have to go to the police rather than deal with the matter internally because they might be in breech of employment law. Its becomes a criminal versus civil matter.

Or something like that.

I think they maybe need to be looking at this, because the hospital potentially still would be liable in such scenarios.

Remember that they are also asking other staff who may be present to go along with the deception.

'He doesn't seem female to me but the other staff present are not denying it'

What are the implications for these staff?

Should other staff immediately leave the examination room so they are not implicated in the deception?

TriesNotToBeCynical · 21/02/2025 12:36

RedToothBrush · 21/02/2025 12:26

Question: Do you think that saying you are female for a intimate examination, potentially is stealthing/sexual assault through deception, because a woman asking for a female only practitioner, is effectively NOT consenting to a male?

Therefore, in theory, I wonder if the legal could be this:
A doctor who doesn't actively declare this, is in breech of the law and hospitals should be telling staff that if they are trans they have an obligation to excuse themselves from single sex requests, but they can't actively as a matter of point tell individuals they can't perform the proceedure because would be outing them. Thus if they have reason to believe someone is doing this, they have to go to the police rather than deal with the matter internally because they might be in breech of employment law. Its becomes a criminal versus civil matter.

Or something like that.

I think they maybe need to be looking at this, because the hospital potentially still would be liable in such scenarios.

I think that would be a good law. But in order for it be the law we would have to amend the GRA, and possibly the EA, depending on the current SC case.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 21/02/2025 12:40

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 21/02/2025 12:33

Remember that they are also asking other staff who may be present to go along with the deception.

'He doesn't seem female to me but the other staff present are not denying it'

What are the implications for these staff?

Should other staff immediately leave the examination room so they are not implicated in the deception?

Could the other staff claim their action was based on facts they knew, or only on their impression?

NebulousDog · 21/02/2025 12:41

I am going to post this across from X, because it is worth a read. Thank you Women Won't Wheest (posting on X as WWWheest with an "@" at the start):

We're now a week on from the end of Part 1 of Peggie v FHB/Upton. I don't think anyone knew quite how significant this would be.

It has captured the zeitgeist in a way that none of us saw coming. It's being discussed in hairdressers, in Tesco (other supermarkets are available), over garden walls, at the, proverbial, water-cooler in a way that even Isla Bryson wasn't.

Perhaps because we all know a nurse. We can, easily, put ourselves in her position. And because we, still, had faith that big institutions like the NHS & the RCN (Royal College of Nursing) would, when it came down to it, protect nurses like Sandie Peggie.

It's like finding out that the Santa isn't real.

The sense of utter betrayal that the NHS will, happily, break the law to appease a single male Dr. A single male Dr who believes that biological sex is a "nebulous" idea & that human beings can simply change one nebulous sex for another, based on pretty earrings & a, receding, ponytail.

And, perhaps less shockingly given the disaster that was their defense of Isla Bryson's imprisonment in a female jail, a Government who, collectively, appear to be impersonating ostriches & hoping it all goes away.

The public have, at long last, 'got it'.

All of the dangers that campaigners have been warning about for years have suddenly come to fruition.

And those who said we were being hyperbolic only have one option, which they're clinging onto, like rats on a life raft leaving a sinking ship, deny everything.
Deny the law actually exists.
Deny that The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 say that men & women MUST have access to separate changing rooms.
Deny that "trans people" think that sex = gender.
Deny that female patients in hospital, who request same-sex care, will be examined by a man.
Deny that well paid, young DEI Executives don't know their sphincter from their cubitus.
Deny that The Scottish Govt is simultaneously arguing that women are entitled to single-sex spaces AND that they're not.
Deny that The GMC holds incorrect registrations for Doctors.
Deny that The GMC allows their members to "erase" past wrongdoings, by "changing their gender" on their registration.

The public don't care that Sandie Peggie's husband posted a cartoon on Facebook. They don't care about her politics.

They DO care that Great Auntie Nora might have a young man performing her gynae examination without her consent & that women are being told that they must undress in front of a male colleague before & after every shift.

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 21/02/2025 12:46

NebulousDog · 21/02/2025 12:41

I am going to post this across from X, because it is worth a read. Thank you Women Won't Wheest (posting on X as WWWheest with an "@" at the start):

We're now a week on from the end of Part 1 of Peggie v FHB/Upton. I don't think anyone knew quite how significant this would be.

It has captured the zeitgeist in a way that none of us saw coming. It's being discussed in hairdressers, in Tesco (other supermarkets are available), over garden walls, at the, proverbial, water-cooler in a way that even Isla Bryson wasn't.

Perhaps because we all know a nurse. We can, easily, put ourselves in her position. And because we, still, had faith that big institutions like the NHS & the RCN (Royal College of Nursing) would, when it came down to it, protect nurses like Sandie Peggie.

It's like finding out that the Santa isn't real.

The sense of utter betrayal that the NHS will, happily, break the law to appease a single male Dr. A single male Dr who believes that biological sex is a "nebulous" idea & that human beings can simply change one nebulous sex for another, based on pretty earrings & a, receding, ponytail.

And, perhaps less shockingly given the disaster that was their defense of Isla Bryson's imprisonment in a female jail, a Government who, collectively, appear to be impersonating ostriches & hoping it all goes away.

The public have, at long last, 'got it'.

All of the dangers that campaigners have been warning about for years have suddenly come to fruition.

And those who said we were being hyperbolic only have one option, which they're clinging onto, like rats on a life raft leaving a sinking ship, deny everything.
Deny the law actually exists.
Deny that The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 say that men & women MUST have access to separate changing rooms.
Deny that "trans people" think that sex = gender.
Deny that female patients in hospital, who request same-sex care, will be examined by a man.
Deny that well paid, young DEI Executives don't know their sphincter from their cubitus.
Deny that The Scottish Govt is simultaneously arguing that women are entitled to single-sex spaces AND that they're not.
Deny that The GMC holds incorrect registrations for Doctors.
Deny that The GMC allows their members to "erase" past wrongdoings, by "changing their gender" on their registration.

The public don't care that Sandie Peggie's husband posted a cartoon on Facebook. They don't care about her politics.

They DO care that Great Auntie Nora might have a young man performing her gynae examination without her consent & that women are being told that they must undress in front of a male colleague before & after every shift.

BELLISSIMA!

teawamutu · 21/02/2025 12:51

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 21/02/2025 12:46

BELLISSIMA!

Beautiful stuff indeed.

Thank you to Sandie Peggie, and Dr 'Beth' Upton. Terven MVPs for 2025.

Waitwhat23 · 21/02/2025 12:53

Fantastic post by Women Won't Wheesht.

And it really isn't hyperbole - it really does feel like this is a turning point. It's being discussed all over the place, on the front of just about every newspaper and politicians are finally being held to account.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 21/02/2025 13:06

Bunpea · 21/02/2025 12:09

With the GMC’s shenanigans hiding a doctor’s trans status and any previous restrictions and suspensions, I am now clear I want to avoid all trans medical practitioners.

Question: How do I find out if a doctor is trans (I.e. in advance, at time of making an appointment, without the benefit of eyeballing him)?

I wondered about searching birth certs, but the GRA allows them to be updated and re-issued to replace a persons legal sex with their ‘gender’ after transition and a GRC.

However, the UK’s Birth Register, which is the ORIGINAL record from which birth certs are created, is NOT updated, and retains the original sex-at-birth information. Bingo! Problem: according to Chat GPT, the Birth Register is not accessible to the public.

Anyone else with ideas on how to find out in advance if a doctor is trans?

You've actually just made a point about eyeballing them.

Are blind women also not entitled to same sex care in the eyes of the NHS? I mean if I couldn't see my doctor was clearly a trans identifying man, but requested women only, why should the onus be on the patient asking if they are indeed actually a biological woman?

It's disgusting that there's a refusal from the GMC to investigate the nebulous sex comments regardless of their sloppy reasoning that the tribunal has not yet come to a conclusion.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 21/02/2025 13:09

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 21/02/2025 05:51

I did watch Kate Forbes carefully during FMQs and she wasn't very clappy seal like the rest of the SNP lot. She has form for going behind the leaderships back though so yes it will be interesting what happens now.
I don't really trust Wes Streeting, he's said/done some positive things but I think he's more interested in his own reputation/future PM than in women's rights.

It's a very good thing if he recognises that his reputation depends on his support for women's rights to dignity and safety, I think. It's to be hoped that other politicians will join him in that.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 21/02/2025 13:13

delvar · 21/02/2025 11:47

What's the difference between God and a consultant doctor?

God thinks he's a Consultant doctor.

The joke is actually...

What's the difference between God and a consultant doctor?

God doesn't thinks he's a consultant doctor.

Full disclosure I am a retired A&E consultant

rebmacesrevda · 21/02/2025 13:16

On the subject of name-changing and erasing history, read this with caution as it is likely to induce rage/ high blood pressure. It's so extreme it seems unbelievable, but the author appears legitimate as far as I can tell.

https://www.andrewgoldheretics.com/p/the-pedos-turning-trans-to-hide-their

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.