NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

The PP asking if other doctors are of Upton's mindset: I can't remember enough of the specifics to find the piece, but there was a glowing feature in a GP magazine about how happy a TIM doctor felt to be 'accepted' by his patients, many of whom were women of minority ethnic groups and faiths.

Whether the women were told in advance they weren't getting a woman doctor and given the chance to properly consent was glossed over.

That’s an interesting thought. Even Mr Menno, staunch gay male supporter of women’s rights, fully admits that he was part of the “be kind” gang before he realised what that actually entailed.

I do very much think people should be held to account for their past actions, particularly if they claim they didn’t actually do what they clearly did do.

But I also want more people on our side, and so continuing to punish them for behaving in a certain way before they realised how bad things were…that seems counterproductive to our cause. Also, it would include so many of us here now, who only peaked recently. So, I’m prepared to give Streeting a bit of leeway. Let’s see if he is prepared to put his money where his mouth is.

I watched that interview she is a fucking legend. She actually put into words my thoughts exactly in a much more eloquent way that I ever could.

Joanna Cherry on Times radio now discussing this.

So, I’m prepared to give Streeting a bit of leeway. Let’s see if he is prepared to put his money where his mouth is.

Oh definitely. Cynical as I am, I'm very glad that Streeting is making the right noises here, especially as the unions, regulators and other healthcare bodies appear to have been totally captured.

I will still be quite grumpy if he is given credit for women's hard work. Though not remotely surprised.

Came back to add: what I mean is, he can only think (or he says to himself that he can only think) of one reason why a woman would not want him to treat her, which is transphobia. Nothing to do with him being, you know, male.

What did she say? I can't work out how to listen to the interview on Times.

Aren’t all politicians motivated by considering their future? Isn’t this why the law got into this mess - by them seeking approval rather than operating on principles?

A politician does what is expedient and hopes that it is right. A statesman does what is right and finds that it is expedient. Sadly, there aren't too many statesmen around these days.

Typing that makes me wonder if anyone has come up with a gender-neutral equivalent of the word statesman.

From what I’ve read, DBS is different and will be linked despite someone transitioning. There’s a process for that. That’s why the GMC ‘wipe clean’ has come as a shock and concern.

Statesthem?

The "process" is the individual voluntarily telling the DBS their previous name or names.

MustBeThursday · Today 07:50

I know he said he would, I just can't get my head around it that you could do that with no inkling of it being cruel. I would hope (though I'm not optimistic) that maybe NHS Fife or other NHS trusts might consider this something to review either specifically with DU or in general with TW employees

I honestly believe that he understands exactly what he's doing and that he enjoys it. Reading what he said and explanations here of his tone and demeanour and his general arrogance lead me to that.

I absolutely do not believe for one moment that he thinks he's a woman at all. He's delighted to impose himself on his female colleagues and to pretend that he's a victim. I think he sees women as his personal props and playthings, especially when he bragged that he'd impose himself on a woman patient, who asked specifically for a female doctor.

The gist of the interview with Joanna Cherry was praising Wes Streeting for his change in view - done with good grace.
Acknowledging Anas Sarwar’s change but it is ludicrous to suggest that it’s new news.
Labour should never have whipped the vote.

Swinney has still not met with any of the Women’s groups but has taken multiple meetings with Trans activists etc
I missed what she said about Sturgeon - won’t have been anything positive!

Cherry was clear, concise and no nonsense.

So sorry I can’t provide a better ‘transcript’ - dogs barking and delivery during the interview.
It was approx 953 am on Times Radio.

Thank you to everyone for keeping us abreast of the Sandie Peggie case.

I missed what she said about Sturgeon - won’t have been anything positive!

Cherry (not word for word, obvs) said that when women brought up concerns Sturgeon called them transphobes

Who are the Zizians? What we know about vegan 'cult' linked to six killings - BBC News

Is this good reporting from the BBC? - clearly declare that Lasota is a transgender woman and then use their preferred pronoun.

Anyone know if Sandie Peggie's workplace have received a deluge of support postcards and cards yet?

This surely compromises the entire DBS system in that case. And to think how close we were to selfID. Which government department has responsibility for DBS?

I gave up expecting integrity or statespersonship from politicians long ago, after meeting a few. There are some around but few and far between and it's much harder for them to get to the top of their party. That is true of all parties - some, like Labour, have supporters who live in fantasy worlds and some, like the tories, are equally firmly wedded to damaging policies. I'm old enough to remember Kenneth Clarke taking a stand over Europe and therefore never becoming tory PM. Wouldnt have said he had an ethical bone in his body - and I was wrong.

Whether Wes has found the sunlight or is just making noises that he thinks will help his career he hasnt managed to actually do much yet. If he can get Darlington to change before the nurses have to go to court and get the regulatory bodies to change then I'll have more faith in him.

I wonder how it would work out if his mother was his patient (I was going to ask if that would even be allowed but look where we are 🙄). Would his mother dare ask for same sex care? Would his attitude be the same towards his mother, having to do some intimate procedure to her, as it would be to any other woman? Or child. Would he get the same ... whatever it is he wants to achieve ... from treating his mother as he would any other woman? Or child.

Or if he wasn't going to treat his mother, would he be happy to stand by as his mother is intimately treated by another him with a different name?

Perhaps that's another rabbit hole it's best not to look down ...

I absolutely do not believe for one moment that he thinks he's a woman at all. He's delighted to impose himself on his female colleagues and to pretend that he's a victim.

Duper's Delight. It's a thing.

I remember that, but forget his name. I'm pretty sure patients weren't told and one of the things he was pleased about was that they had no idea. He definitely gloated that women from religious groups who would never, pre-transition, have allowed him to perform intimate examinations now did so.

I think this was him:

https://spectra-london.org.uk/about-us/board-members/kamilla-kamaruddin/

And this was the interview:

https://bjgp.org/content/67/660/313

" A lot of my patients were quite conservative — many female patients wore long clothes, or the hijab — but they allowed me to examine them despite my change. In fact, after my transition, they even allowed me to perform more intimate examinations that they did not let me to do when I was a male GP. Every single one of them refused my offer of a chaperone even when they knew that I am transgender. After the positive experience on my first day back to work, I remembered having tears in my eyes during my drive home. I was overwhelmed with emotions, and they were tears of happiness. I could not recall the last time I felt this happy."

🤮

Yes he's up there with the pervs who will get a kick out of seeing women and girls.

And we all know pervs will only be happy perving so long before they want more.