NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

You are correct. You must get informed consent from a patient before you examine them. If you are a male doctor masquerading as a female you should tell the patient this. If you don't get informed consent from the patient then it is common assault or sexual assault depending on the actual examination.

I suspect that he just isn't interested in anyone else's perspective. I've come across more self righteousness among trans people and their allies in the last three years than in the rest of my life. [Not all trans people etc.]

I'm a little behind with the threads so apologies if this has already been linked, the Nursing Time's take

https://www.nursingtimes.net/policies-and-guidance/nhs-fife-changing-room-tribunal-what-we-know-so-far-20-02-2025/

Possibly I'm a little quick to take offence but, although mostly just reporting the bare facts, it seems slightly slanted. For example, the reasons they cite for the ET taking longer than anticipated doesn't seem to mention the fact of respondent's woeful behaviour in late disclosure of pertinent documents.

There don't seem to be any comments. Perhaps you have to be a subscriber to see them?

Wrong thread sorry...

This ties into something that I think people (and the law) have only just started to acknowledge, which is that often the safest course of action a woman can take if she encounters a dangerous man is to stay quiet and do nothing. It's potentially more risky to challenge him. Men have spent years leveraging this, using it to claim that it wasn't rape because the woman didn't actively fight him off.

I can't say 100% that I would be able to challenge a man in a female changing room, especially not if I was in there alone with him. I'd like to think that I would. But if I had any sense that it might be dangerous to challenge him then I wouldn't. It doesn't mean that I'm fine with it.

100% this!

This is far from a one-off. Police in the UK lost 729 sex offenders between 2019 and 2021 simply because they changed their names.

If this isn't justification to be wary of gender identiy and name changes then what is?

There is also the fear of challenging and getting it wrong.
Potentially really offending and really upsetting an actual woman.

Thinking about the recent a&e visits (thankfully not for me but family members). It is not unusual to wait several hours for a Dr to assess. Patients are often vulnerable, desperate and already feeling somewhat dehumanised. I can imagine women after waiting so long and often in pain and discomfort, who are then greeted by the like of DU, would end up keeping quiet. When you're in this position it can feel as though we have to accept our treatment without questioning or complaining. It's terrible to be put in such a position.

Upton has claimed in the Tribunal that he is a ‘biological woman’. So any patient asking him that question would be no nearer the truth.

Except in my experience, “misgendering” someone out of the actual sex they are — that is, accidentally calling a woman “sir” because she’s got short hair and no makeup, or as happens all the time to my husband, calling a clean-shaven, long-haired man “ma’am” — generally leads to the misgendered person laughing it off and correcting you. Because their identity isn’t dependent on the rest of the world playing along. They just are a woman or a man.

Totally agree. I used to have very short hair, and elderly people sometimes called me "Sir". I found it amusing and just couldn't be offended by it.

I've just caught up with Joanna Cherry interview on Times Radio. (9:50 if anyone looking for it). I love that she talked about Anas Sarwar having an Isla Bryson moment.

I predict a slew of IB moments from now on.

No I meant more deliberately challenging some like Dr Uption

He rocks up in full on pretence about being a biological female and you as a patient are looking sizing him up, he's a manly looking woman, then you notice the hands, the body shape. Your thinking - that's a man - but then you've got doubt in your mind.

Everyone else is going along with the pretence.

Can you imagine trying to challenge that,

It wasn't misgendering but when we called in to a garage a few years back the young girl behind the counter referred to my wife as my daughter. Admittedly she is ten years younger than me but I don't think that I look that old! Every time we pass that particular garage my wife likes to remind me of the incident.😀

Can he not be had up for perjury, by saying that? 🤔

Everyone else is going along with the pretence.
Can you imagine trying to challenge that

Absolutely this!

Absolutely. Happened to my kid all the time before puberty. He didn't care because he's self confident and doesn't see girls as lesser in any way.

Teaching him that "misgendering" is offensive would have undone how carefully I'm trying to raise him as non-misogynist. I refuse to believe trans people's feelings are more important than that!

I'm pretty sure I saw a small smile on DU's face while he described being wolf whistled etc.

Did anyone else see that or did I imagine it?

NebulousDog · Today 12:41

I am going to post this across from X, because it is worth a read. Thank you Women Won't Wheest (posting on X as WWWheest with an "@" at the start):

That's a very powerful post, full of insight; well done to them.

Oh definitely no — because he could become dangerous. Safer to play dumb, play along, shrink, disappear without challenging, etc.

Just de lurking to say thank you to each and every one of you. I don't often comment as there are women out there so much more eloquent and knowledgeable than me.
It's taken me all week to catch up and I'm not quite at the end of this thread but wanted to say how pleased I was when I checked out the petition map and saw the angry red area in the middle of Yorkshire. I do wonder if it's the bloody awful stonewall champion school (although they have removed that from the school website) that have peaked more people than the surrounding areas.

I wish I had that confidence.

This site has been swarming with MRAs for several years. They're immediately transparent and very, very tedious.

If you're too much even for a Canadian university, you know you've probably made an overstep somewhere.

She really is.