NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

[Hastily agrees]

I certainly hope so!

Wes Streeting: Trans doctors’ disciplinary history must not be erased:

https://www.thetimes.com/article/313777de-f384-4ad5-a696-1ab919464504?shareToken=96179beceb57446874fab8365c4b1525

Dr Beth Upton really has managed to shine some light into murky dark corners. Ridiculous that disciplinary records are ereased.

It wouldn't surprise me if Beth Upton goes poof in the same way as Rachel McKinnon went poof re-emerging as another name and identity.

I did watch Kate Forbes carefully during FMQs and she wasn't very clappy seal like the rest of the SNP lot. She has form for going behind the leaderships back though so yes it will be interesting what happens now.
I don't really trust Wes Streeting, he's said/done some positive things but I think he's more interested in his own reputation/future PM than in women's rights.

One thing my mind keeps circling back to is DU response about a woman asking for a female doctor. Would NHS have a policy for trans staff members about stepping back when someone asks for same sex care or would such policies focus on accommodating the staff members identity only? Yes, a woman wanting same sex care could decline care from DU, but if a patient has asked specifically for a female doctor how can DU possibly think it's acceptable to require them to restate that they want a female, when that means they will have to directly confront DU? Would DU do the same ridiculous exchange as in the tribunal, pretending not to understand what female is, make them spell it out (and potentially then claim they are transphobic/aggressive)? Is there any awareness that the woman might not feel able to challenge his presence? That forcing them to do so would be traumatic?

What happened to first do no harm??

@MustBeThursday Upton was clear that is someone asked for a female doctor he would attend. With no thought or care for anything beyond his own preferences. He won't be the only trans woman in the NHS who would behave like that

I know he said he would, I just can't get my head around it that you could do that with no inkling of it being cruel. I would hope (though I'm not optimistic) that maybe NHS Fife or other NHS trusts might consider this something to review either specifically with DU or in general with TW employees

Ah, but he doesn’t think it’s cruel, he thinks it’s his right.

So that makes it all ok.

(edited spelling)

He also thinks many women view transwomen as women so would be fine with him turning up.

I think that as he's a white middle class man he is the poster child for privilege. He knows if he is not happy about something he complains and it is sorted. Therefore he has no concept of why a woman faced with him pretending to be a female doctor wouldn't just say she doesn't want him. He has no concept of the pressure women face to not make a fuss and just accept things.

Upton is at work now? I mean, he’s not off sick or suspended? So he is, possibly today, denying a woman her right to single sex care?

I am so angry

Or he understands perfectly and cruelty is the point.

It feels like some of the ‘superficially compassionate but get over yourself’ stuff from Riley Dennis that Magdalen B used to deconstruct.

It was the RCN.
I had forgotten about that. And as far as I know it was, to some extent, brushed under the carpet - ie I have no idea who/how many people were involved in the sexual harassment or any other details about what was going on.
There might be more out there that I haven't found due to lack of serious sleuthing.

Annoyingly organisations like the RCN/BMA/NMC are not subject to FOI regulations - I think they're classed as private organisations or something as opposed to public bodies that do fall within the scope.

www.nursingtimes.net/workforce/rcn-congress-cancelled-due-to-serious-allegations-of-sexual-harassment-28-08-2021/

Aren’t all politicians motivated by considering their future? Isn’t this why the law got into this mess - by them seeking approval rather than operating on principles?

I’ve no idea if Wes Streeting a supporter of women’s rights - at least he’s speaking up - but disappointingly very few of the other politicians are either.

However now that such a powerful figure is calling time on some of these problems, others will start to join especially as they are now seeing how public opinion is going. Hopefully there will be clarity on single sex spaces in the next 12 months…

It’s like NC said in that Scottish Parliament hearing - there’s what the legal definition and then there’s how everyone else thinks it should work.

Most people can’t really engage with arguments about elite sport or rape centres, but almost everyone can relate to the idea that no one should lose their job over asking a man to leave a female changing room!

The politicians have seriously let us all down - they’ll need to do some serious back peddling if they don’t want to hand Reform a load of seats at the next election.

I really want to understand what other staff are meant to do in this situation too.

If calling DU "a man" and "misgendering" and using male pronouns when describing the issue is what got SP into trouble, what route are NHS Trusts offering to staff who want/need to intervene to advocate for a female patient who has requested same sex care? How can a nurse speak to a Dr like DU and ask that they don't see or examine the patient without using the words that describe the reality of the situation?

Yes, and if he pops using a different female name, he’ll still be a man, and look like one. Just like Rachel McKinnon.

It occurs to me that at this particular point in time, it might be awfully convenient to establish himself with the wider public as the "one person prepared to stand up". He can't stand for leadership on NHS success, so this is his good guy narrative. It's quite Johnsinion/Faragion when you think about it.

I am obviously pleased that he is pushing back, but how typical is it that women do all the hard work and a man will end up with the credit?

It is beyond disturbing and Upton won't be the only one. Do Trusts not recognise this as a breach of patient safety? How can they when they have a policy where no one is permitted to point out to Upton and others that they are biologically male? This doctor has under oath said he is biologically female and in his deluded world where his employers facilitate his delusions he is untouchable.

God complex

I agree with @KnottyAuty - politicians swing with popular opinion, it's baked into the job. How some on this thread can say they are taking Trump's support for sex-based rights at face value but not Streeting's boggles my mind. It's like they just learned about politicians yesterday.

It’s a good question. As I said earlier, many trusts have policies that state staff are not allowed to even ask if someone is trans. I’m not sure how trusts handle things if a patient says they want a same sex member of staff for something (because it’s not just doctors) and a transgender staff member comes along. Are patients also not allowed to misgender staff? Perhaps they can say ‘I’m not comfortable with x doing this procedure’ and not have to give a reason? I think this is very complex, given that a large proportion of patients coming to hospital are part of the ageing population, who are less likely to grasp the concept of transition. Also statistics show that many patients have delirium due to medical issues and underlying conditions. Surely that’s only going to add to the confusion if a member of staff corrects them for using the wrong pronouns, especially in a situation like with Dr U where the transition appears to be mostly name and pronoun changes plus some grooming? Wearing unisex scrubs. (All my reading of transcripts and information suggests that certainly at the time that SP challenged things, this was the case with Dr U).
IME these policies are written by Equality, diversity and inclusion teams. These teams are generally very ‘woke’. It’s well worth watching the podcasts by ‘This isn’t working’ about EDI (DEI in some places) teams and why there are issues.

Possibly a more personal reason is that Wes Streeting like many gay men is unhappy with the way that TRAs have in Sarah Phillimore's phrase hitched "their parasitic wagon onto gay rights'".

There's also that whole issue of sex offenders being able to change their name and legal sex which makes them untraceable in a DBS check. There was a bit of a kerfuffle about that a couple of years ago but not sure whether anything changed as a result.

@Chrysanthemum5

Therefore he has no concept of why a woman faced with him pretending to be a female doctor wouldn't just say she doesn't want him. He has no concept of the pressure women face to not make a fuss and just accept things.

I think it’s worse than that. I think he assumes that the “right” sort of woman, such as those he clearly surrounds himself with, will just accept that he is actually a woman. Only the “wrong” sort of woman would think he wasn’t, and of course that sort of woman is a bitch and a bigot so they should be punished anyway.