NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

Perhaps I shouldn't say this because I'm a man, but this has been bothering me. We refer to men as having "balls of steel". Why then are people saying Peggie has "ovaries of iron". Iron is weaker than steel. Surely she has ovaries of steel? Or, if we prefer, ovaries of tungsten (the only metal that is stronger than steel)? I may be barking up completely the wrong tree here and I'm happy to be corrected, but using iron for women and steel for men just feels to me like an example of the kind of casual sexism we all tend to take for granted.

I have a question about July - if new material is presented such as phone records and emails - are witnesses that have already been questioned further questioned?

I think it's more a function of deep, deep ignorance of inorganic chemistry. Certainly in my case!

But ffs, why are they worried about upsetting stonewall?

Hmm, why indeed. Why is such deference shown to stonewall and their likes when basic human decency is being actively denied to over half of the population. Surely it's more than just what they've got over some people and the misogyny.

The whole thing has gone so far, there must be a bigger picture, a bigger endgame.

They won't be questioned further automatically, but they can be recalled if necessary.

I find the “ovaries of some metal or other” remarks rather irritating.

Ordinary ovaries are good enough IMO. But I am an irritable old lady, annoyed by very many things.

@NebulousDogBollocking
As I gradually join the dots, I feel more and more like a conspiracy theorist! Is it all just a sequence of unfortunate events, in which a minority of predatory men seeking power ends in the mutilation and sterilisation of autistic children? Or is there actually a very dark master plan at work? Honestly I need a sanity check here! Cui bono in all of this?

Really it's surprising that more 16 year olds don't use this to buy alcohol.

"I know you say this is an age thing, but you probably don't realise that this is unlawful discrimination on grounds of my protected characteristic of sex/race/belief etc. etc."

It seems to me that a lot of it is about money and porn.

At the risk of getting quite conspiracy theory-y here, there are a few underpublicised sleuths on the interwebs who have been looking at the huge amount of funding that places like Stonewall get from the medico-pharmaceutical industry. There’s a lot of money to be made from making a patient-for-life from a perfectly ordinary fully-functioning body.

There are other interest groups (law? - can someone else remember specifics of this?) that seem less than benevolent in their interest too, but my brain isn’t quite awake enough yet to remember them or their possible motivations.

Re the medicalisation of children, there are a number of theories for why certain groups of people might push for this against all evidence that it’s beneficial. One is that the men who come to this later in life need to be able to justify their behaviour by saying they have always felt this way, since they were a child. Thus their support for the idea of a “trans child”. And (from another thread on this board) there is a type of man who might have an interest in blocking children’s puberty because it results in children stuck in a pre-pubertal state.

@DontTellMeWhat2Do, I agree with @Needspaceforlego. I think NHS Fife and the wider NHS will be relieved if they lose. The tide is turning and while gender idealists may continue to win occasional skirmishes, they can no longer win the war.

It will still take considerable time to sort out, as the ideology has been so invasive that a lot of people genuinely believe that focusing on biology is bigotry and that culture will not change soon. But remember Stonewall have neither the support, influence or money that they once did.

My hope for this year is that the legal cases, large and small, will lead to the NHS and other public sector organisations taking advice from real lawyers and not self-identified ones. When that happens, I think we will start to see a return to woman referring to the biological variety.

Is this more of the batshittery claiming that nobody can tell the sex of another person without 'inspecting genitals' or doing a DNA test? The evidence is already there for all to see but we're all supposed to pretend we can't tell.

There are. But what makes me so sad is that having peaked mightily last summer in the mess around the Olympic boxing, and become very vocal and open about it, is that so many friends contact me privately to express agreement and tell me they don't dare speak publically. It is awful. Genuinely afraid women who feel admitting reality risks their jobs, their friends, their place in the community.

Why people can't see that a 16 yo who looks 10 would be of great interest to some men is beyond me.

At the risk of putting everyone off their Wheatabixes, studies have found that (1) men are sexually aroused by the sight of breasts and of erect penises, (2) there is, apparently, an evolutionary explanation for the second (something to do with competing for mates and if one guy got in there you need to also get in there immediately so that your sperm has a chance to beat his to the punch, as it were).

And, (possibly as a result of this) the combination of the two in one person is apparently very arousing. “Trxxxy-porn” is one of the highest searched for types of porn.

Make of that what you will - I assume there’s a certain amount of pseudoscience in there, but it makes a certain amount of sense.

Thinking back to when all this gender woo first started to become problematic with trans demands that were (deliberately) confusing and threatening, so employers and institutions all scrabbled about finding a way to navigate this new nonsense. Along comes Stonewall with their 'expertise' to advise, train and help write/rewrite the policies we are all stuck with today. No one appeared to challenge or question and just seemed relieved that they could outsource this complex issue. Even Stonewall must have been surprised at how easy it was to worm their way in, with their DEI Campions and league tables. But Stonewall's interpretation of the law was all along wrong? Will the awaited supreme court hearing judgement settle this once and for all? Is there going to be an inquiry, I do hope so. The wasted time and money as well as the personal harm suffered by so many should be held to account. All these tribunals and court cases are such a waste of resources. Political parties, legal systems, our national health and education institutions all in such a fucking mess.

That is how totalitarian regimes function.

Men are particularly prone to the fetishisation of objects and body parts too.

The control of our speech (and hence our thoughts) is the really dangerous part of it. Respected academics have been shunned for talking about science, biology and truth. The indoctrination of public bodies, politicians, the SNP Government, FFS! I'm a mentally stable, intelligent person, and I've been more-or-less blind to it for 20-odd years. I was indoctrinated too, and I think most of my friends still are. I have to tread very carefully now, to drip-feed the truth to them in the hope that they all come to their senses.

In fact 'womanhood' itself as an object of desire is also a fetish....one that drives AGP, but also drag.

China operates a system of social debits and credits.....which keep the population under control. Forbidden behaviours and forbidden speech are punished by withdrawing access to social and civic life. People can even be baricaded inside their own homes and forbidden from going out. Covid lockdown gave a perfect opportunity to implement this.

Surveillance cameras are everywhere......and if you are caught eating on a train you can be banned from using trains going forward, for example. People are encouraged to report their neighbours.

"The Storyville documentary Total Trust: Surveillance State explores China's social credit system and state surveillance. The documentary follows the experiences of a journalist, two families, and the human rights lawyer Weiping Chang"

The above is well worth a watch ( BBC IPlayer)

Certainly, the Scottish politicians commenting on the NHS Fife case still don't seem to be on top of the law. Both Sarwar and Gray keep talking about complying with the Equality Act, when the hospital broke health and safety regs.

Sarwar is lying when he says he wasn't warned, but I also think there is a strong possibility that many found the details explanations boring, and just weren't interested enough to listen.

There is something extremely boak-inducing in what turns men on and I'm so glad I wasn't eating when I read that. We really are very different, aren't we.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14414931/Royal-College-Nursing-female-members-union-bosses-refused-help-nurse-misgendering-doctor.html

"“Maya Forstater, of human rights charity Sex Matters, said: ‘Sandie has been let down unforgivably by the RCN, which refused her request for legal assistance.’”

As many of us thought, her union refused to help.

The RCN have previous on these issues:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nurses-union-accused-of-hounding-out-policy-officer-over-trans-rights-work-3285569

That’s why I think this tribunal has been SO important. It has shone sunlight so widely, that even people who have never thought about this critically before are starting to have tiny little WTF moments. I have been using it as a talking point - and to be honest, the obvious batshittery of it has bolstered my bravery in talking about how batshit it all is. Because saying “did you know they think TWAW?” doesn’t really get you very far, but saying “did you know they think TW are biological women?” opens a few eyes. Not all, but more than before…