NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

*personal capacity

That is a great letter and it's clear she was blocked and ignored when she raised concerns

Historically, long hair on men has gone in and out of fashion for centuries. Charles 1st in the early 1600's had long hair. Fashions for men have also included high heels, earrings, pink and tights. It was common for little boys to have long hair and wear dresses until they hit early adolescence and left their mother's and the nursery to join the men.

None of this was thought to make them women.

From that:

“If a trans person is not allowed to use their preferred facilities, this could be unlawful discrimination on grounds of gender reassignment,” the advice says
“An evidence-based reason must be provided.”

WTF?

Yes to Beau Brummell - the 'Great Renunciation' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Male_Renunciation

Have been trying to upload images of this really interesting article which argues that's it's as much about coding fashion as 'feminine' and planting it all onto women's dress as it is about the shift in taste for men - but I can't figure out how to get a multi-page pdf into few enough readable images to upload. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1362704X.2021.1952919#d1e102

Scottish Human Rights commissioner Claire Methven O'Brien comes out blazing https://www.holyrood.com/comment/view,peggie-v-nhs-fife-more-casualties-to-come

(sorry, cross-posted!)

It is worth searching What Do They Know to understand how many NHS trusts have very permissive policies for transgender staff. And, by extension, lots of restrictions on staff who might wish to query or challenge some behaviours, policies, or other matters.

“Requiring women – or for that matter men – to expose their naked bodies before members of the opposite sex as a condition of accessing employment, education, other public or private commercial services is without shadow of a doubt a breach of privacy, dignity, decency and human rights. No putative right of individuals asserting transgender identities negates this, whatever lobbyists may claim”

This ^
From Claire Methven - is this not the key to SP’s harassment claim. To prove harassment there’s something about one’s human rights being breached?

It's interesting now to see all the separate pieces come together and how it leads to women being unable to complain about a man in a female only space. That a man needs to do basically nothing, because asking him to make any physical changes violates his human rights, and warning female staff in advance so they can change elsewhere violates his right to privacy, and asking him to use a third space discriminates against him as a man pretending to be a woman.

Women's rights violated all over the place, but what can you do.

This is a surprisingly clear and neutral article from the BBC regarding the current tangled mess of the law.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgj5veng7nyo

Looking at the politicians flailing around all over this, I just get the impression that they won't say anything because they don't know what the hell to say.

They can see the problem, all of them. But they don't know how to get out of it without upsetting stonewall and the associated lobbyists.

I think they knew what they were doing and hoped that women would just be quiet and accept it. That the ones who didn't like it would be bullied into compliance.

And all of a sudden, they've got Upton, who isn't small and pathetic and pitiable, but tall, broad shouldered, undeniably male and heterosexual, saying out loud that it's his right to watch women get undressed, that it's his right to carry out intimate examinations when same sex care has been requested, and they're seeing the end result of their eagerness to have their name attached to a bit of equality legislation so they could tell themselves they were a good person who had made a difference in their time in politics.

The problem women have, which we've always had, is that we are the second class humans. We are only ever allowed anything if men are willing to let us have it. I don't know how we fix this. But we can't stop trying.

They can get out of it by saying 'keys up - we got it wrong, we're sorry'.

Fuck stonewall and the rest of them. The game is up and it is indeed a game.

Also - i really think either side will appeal if they lose, so the SP case is far from over.

If SP wins, NHS Fife will likely appeal because if they don't, they'd have to spend time and money changing all their policies, signage, staff training etc and not only NHS Fife but multiple health boards, multiple public sector organisations too (leisure centres, schools etc). What a headache for all of them and a political disaster for both the SNP and Labour in Westminster too.

If NHS Fife wins, women won't be safe and of course, it needs to be taken higher. They'd be a total outcry.

@CheekySnake I think we can complain, at risk of the situation escalating, but most of us tend not to because we're socially conditioned to put up and shut up. The law as it stands is on our side, but we're up against a group of narcissistic manipulative liars who've managed to hoodwink our public institutions into kowtowing to their wants. The thought of standing up for ourselves is scary, but I think we've got to take the risk. Our backs are against the wall now. Nobody wants to get arrested or end up in court, but if that's what it takes....

In any case, we all know who to call if we're in need of a barrister!

Gob smacking - we really need a WTF face on MH!

Yes I read that and thought is the tide really turning?

Crikey. That is blistering.

Disbelief and outrage are mounting. Why bother with elections, a parliament, or the other institutions it supports if the outcome is an ideologically-captured monoculture that not only inhabits an alternative reality but in amoeba-like fashion engulfs then suffocates every trace of challenge or democratic dissent?

I think if Sandie Peggie wins, Fife will be glad it's over and run away with their tail between their legs.
If the rumours are right they have tried to settle with Sandie Peggie, which would settle SP but do nothing for the next case that comes along.

If SP wins they will change their polices and have a clear finding behind them that men - regardless of gender id, and clothing are men - and have no right to female toilets or changing facilities.

Yes!
That paragraph gave me goosebumps.

The thought of standing up for ourselves is scary.

Hence my pure admiration for the small woman with ovaries of iron that is Sandie Peggie. My God how hard must it have been for her to have gone through what she has. We all know she's right.

The people she's facing know she's right but TBH are too scared of their own backs because THEY followed the polices that Holyrood were pushing. There will be consequences for management who pushed the polices.

Labour MSPs are very quickly jumping off the bandwagon.

SNP are still coming out with hot air.

I agree with all your post.

And I know this is true

They can see the problem, all of them. But they don't know how to get out of it without upsetting stonewall and the associated lobbyists.

But ffs, why are they worried about upsetting stonewall? Just fucking do it. Who cares?

Evidence-based like "I'm not a robot, I'm biological, and I'm a woman, so I'm biologically female"? That sort of evidence??

Tides are a good analogy. You get neap tides and spring tides. We need the equivalent of a high spring tide, low atmospheric pressure and strong onshore wind to overcome the “sea defences”. I think Sandie Peggie’s case provides all of these.

They can see the problem, all of them. But they don't know how to get out of it without upsetting stonewall and the associated lobbyists.

They're going to need to do this at some point, because these groups are going to keep making unreasonable and unfair demands which clash with other people's rights. It's not sustainable.

There isn't enough popcorn in the world for this epic shitshow! I can't get any work done because developments are coming in hourly. Now that even the lib fucking dems are allowing women to speak again, surely all we're watching now is the wholesale dismantling of gender woo in public life?

Where will we be in July? A galvanised Sandie Peggie, a universally humbled Dr U, and a furious nation tuning in every day looking for answers. Oh Dr Upton, what have you done 😂