NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

oldwomanwhoruns

Tribunal Tweets couldn't do his eloquence justice. He's articulate, educated, lucid and garrulous... and nutty as a fruit cake.

A Dundee Cake, surely?

Also a lurker. So much I want to say about this but I will limit to: thank goodness for sunlight and raising public awareness. I’ve tried to talk about this irl but have been met with bafflement as people just would not believe it was happening… It has actually really affected my mental health and made me feel extremely isolated. Thank goodness for Mumsnet! Wish I knew GC folk in real life.

Wish I knew GC folk in real life.

Maybe you do, @ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly ? Perhaps they just haven't revealed themselves yet? It's hard for people to say what they think about this issue. Glad you're here anyway, don't feel isolated!

Pity they don't seem to be bound by the principle not to spend public money unwisely...

Much of what is reported in the media or discussed online does not reflect the full picture.

What does this mean, by NHS Fife?? They have had two weeks in court to give the 'full picture'. If there is more to say, wtf haven't they said it?

This seems to be blaming Sandie Oeggie.

Wish I knew GC folk in real life

I'm sure you do. But many of us lack confidence to speak up. This is changing now I think

I work for an organisation where many of the men pride themselves on being compassionate and liberal-minded (I keep my own views on this topic to myself for professional reasons). I suspect that they, and many men like them, may not be aware of the Sandie Peggie tribunal case—or similar cases—because they primarily engage with certain media outlets, which can offer a limited perspective. It's vital that we find ways to reach people like them, as well as others who may not fully appreciate the broader implications of cases like this.

Have you thought of joining the Women's Rights Network, @ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly? It's a network of groups, and most of us meet up in person when we can. And it's free to join! www.womensrights.network

Thanks to whoever posted the Forbes article about Rosa Parks earlier. Really interesting!

She did not accept that norms, rules, or laws were fair, just because they were there.

Which made me think of DU using the changing room and challenging the norms. I mentioned way back the the trans lobby might see DU as their Rosa Parks helping to clear outdated conventions…

But this is a bit different, firstly because as the article says, Rosa Parks was considered awkward, and suffered financially and psychologically after the bus incident. If we consider that the NHS Policy to let biological males use the women’s changing rooms, then it was Sandie who was challenging the norms that everyone else had decided to go along with.

“I was not tired physically, or no more tired than I usually was at the end of a working day … No, the only tired I was, was tired of giving in.”

I do hope that as a result of this tribunal the somehow we get to the point where it’s clear that a male bodied person in a female CR is not acceptable. Yes thats has been a longstanding norm for reasons that haven’t been justfied for a long time. But I think with public opinion and MF’s evidence on risk, surely the reasons for keeping female only spaces have been re-validated and are now clear?

The journalists may not be keen on taking up the trans cause but they enjoy tormenting politicians! They seem to be after the Scottish Health Minister. Hopefully they’ll keep pressing for clear guidance following other Scots politicians breaking ranks and saying they’d never expected this sort of situation… It would be marvellous if they did issue guidance before Part 2 in July… The question is how to keep it in the news?

@oldwomanwhoruns some of us have tried and never hear anything back. i'm on the Facebook page, sometimes post a comment about a woman they havent mentioned who needs support (different people, not only one). I've donated money - but I dont know any IRL members. So as I'm ignored I havent given them any money recently.

Have seem comments from other people on MN who have had similar experience.

She's done a parody of an NHS leaflet, saying things like if you're a man you'll be asked if you're pregnant, we will ask you your pronouns, etc. And has received a legal letter telling her to stop.

Take a look at the video when you get home, though

For me, It was when he was asked something to do with people's reaction to him, and he said yes, lots of people don't agree with women doctors.

Don't tell me that's not trolling!

It's a particular kind of misogyny I notice a lot that uses the fact of women being opressed by one group of men to gain advantage for another group of men. A bit like the men that say we should do what they say because other men would deny us abortion rights. Or the men who identify as good guys but would use a prostitute on the lads holiday to Amsterdam.

As though a female doctor could wear trousers, go to work without makeup and be mistaken for a male doctor.

Thanks. (And to everyone else who has expressed support - means a lot but I don’t have time to name check everyone.. after school craziness here!) I have had a few whispered conversations but nothing really explicit. It’s a small community and there are a few quite strident pro-trans voices and I’m afraid I’m conflict avoidant due to past trauma so I don’t like to say anything… I don’t think those who are strident are really willing to listen to reason. A number have “trans“ kids and I have some sympathy because it’s clear they’re doing what they feel is best for them… My weighing in doesn’t feel appropriate.
And this is all the more reason why the wholesale failure of the authorities to investigate the underlying reasons for their distress is so shocking. They’re failing them, big time.

My daughter had her tonsils out a few years ago (during lock down). She was 21 then. And her biggest worry was that she would be sexually abused on the way down to the operating theatre, or afterwards in recovery.

Isn't that awful? She had previous ops for different things and I always got to accompany her because of this fear. But during lock down she was on her own.

Anyway, we adopted her at nearly 2. She was removed from her birth family at 6 months and there is no evidence of sexual abuse.

But the therapist we saw when she was 5 tld me that her hypervigilance and anxiety were off the scale (though she tried very hard to hide them). Therapist said that those who have experienced early trauma see possibilities for danger everywhere. There was a fireplace in the room. Therapist said that if she asked a child, in that room, what his/her parents might do to them if they were really angry with him/her, a child from a non trauma background would say sth like "ground me" but the kids from a trauma background would say "put me up the chimney" even though none of them had ever been put up a chimney. But they could see the possibility.

And imo this is one of the big reasons we have such a lack of understanding among the elite who run our organisations and the rest of us. We might not be at the "put me up the chimney" level - though some are, and they matter - but we have enough instinct to see the possibilities eg when we see or envision a man in the ladies. And these women in senior positions don't seem to share this. Has it been driven down, out of their consciousness, or did they have amazingly secure childhoods which allowed them to soar?

My daughter can't have men walking in. She would panic, flee (her trauma response). TRAs have told her it's my job to teach her not to panic but it's impossible. Her amygdala is triggered in a nano second, before any thought processes kick in.

All women deserve same sex spaces. Most of us will be triggered by seeing a man in a women's space, but for women with a trauma history, it is especially important, otherwise they won't be able to go out. Same sex spaces are part of the scaffolding my daughter needs to navigate the world safely.

he said yes, lots of people don't agree with women doctors

does the stupid and arrogant twonk know that the Medical Act 1876 enables anyone of either sex to be licensed as a doctor? I know it isn't quite 150 years, but I'd have thought news would have reached Scotland by now.

Many women not just agree with women doctors, they seek them out as GPs and as consultants. For the same sort of reasons they will shun a doctor who does not know that a woman is.

Thanks. I will look into it…
There are now so many different groups, FWS, Sex Matters, FiliA, WRN … I’m a bit confused who to go with.

@Arran2024 well put and much love for wonderful parenting X

Neil Gray has full confidence in NHS Fife management apparently. He gave an expected answer waffling about ‘guidance’ and not getting involved in an ongoing process.
they really are going to wait for the outcome of the tribunal before making any changes, and seem oblivious to public opinion.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9eoo64

someone posted the NHSFife internal memo earlier and I’ve been ruminations on the line about MSM SM etc not ferrying the full story (paraphrasing). It feels kinda threatening and I wonder if they are going all out on SP is a witch as their defence and trying to gather all sorts of Goody so and so stuff to come at her with!

I struggled to join because I am not on fb or X. They need to vet people who join for obvious reasons (they have been infiltrated in the past). I finally spoke to a WRN rep at a booth at Battle of Ideas. There were further steps, but we got there. Not being on SM really held me back at the beginning.

I applied a few days ago and am still awaiting a response. I hope this means they're overwhelmed with applications right now!

This is fascinating - might explain a lot..

I’ve had major issues trying to explain to certain other women (who call themselves feminists) why I have anxiety around dark paths/backstreets, isolated countryside walks, toilets or changing areas that are down back corridors in pubs/nightclubs etc, any kind of situation where I might be attacked. They’re literally baffled. They think I’m paranoid, or overly suspicious of men.. and to be fair, that’s how I was too because I grew up in the Thatcher era where women could and should do and be anything that men could - and then “ladette” culture happened, and it was all about aping male behaviours, being a “cool girl”, downing the pints with the rest of them, not doing anything “boring”. And so for a while I was utterly carefree, until one night it happened. And then BAM! I wasn’t any more. All my illusions were shattered. My female body, that body I couldn’t think my way out of, suddenly loomed right up as the reason I was different and vulnerable and from that moment on I could not unsee it. And yea lots of people did say to me: what were you thinking of, taking that short cut at night in the dark? I was so so carefree. Until I wasn’t. It has haunted me ever since. And I think these women maybe just haven’t had that BAM moment…

Actually it's just further proof of his not being a woman and never having been a girl. Women in medicine from Elizabeth Garrett Anderson on are standard approved role models we hear about from childhood. The idea that there is something remarkable or disputed about women practicing medicine died decades before he or any of us were born.

But he despises women so much he never noticed.