NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

On the theme of men not realising how women modify their behaviour, one of the reasons that the Invisible Women book had such an impact on me was that it opened my eyes to things I had become inured to and normalised.

I had never questioned whether DH felt the need to carry his keys in his hand, and of course he doesn't. Being tailgated at night on a country road is annoying for him, but he doesn't feel threatened and he never has to consider his safety when choosing where to sit on public transport.

But the worst wake up call was around sexual assault. I read the horrific statistics on assaults on women in healthcare and initially thought, no that can't be right. Then I stopped and thought about it and reflected on my own daily experiences. And what I realised was that as a young student & newly qualified nurse, I had had my tits squeezed and my bum slapped so often when providing personal care, that I stopped noticing it.

Dr U really has no idea what SP has put up with in 30 years in frontline healthcare.

I have realised recently how much my holiday activities have been affected by this. e.g. men trying to find out what hotel I am staying at, saying they'll see me later, they'll look out for me next time. This is just guys I've had random interactions with when abroad e.g. bought something from them at a kiosk. It's made me change my plans/movements to avoid them.

I'm now a) annoyed and
b) wondering how many other women have done this.

And at work I have put up with SO FUCKING MUCH sexual harassment from male patients - it's just brushed off, or we're advised to be careful how we dress in particular circumstances.

And don't get me started on when I worked for The Samaritans - I'm still too angry to talk rationally about how egregiously they fail their female volunteers.

I think most of us, @StellaAndCrow . I know I've taken the steps you mention, and given men false phone numbers, just to get away from a conversation that wasn't stopping

Tough for you, 10 is very young. But some women whose early years were so protected that they didn't have that horrible moment of revelation of vulnerability seem to retain the luxury of not having to think about it. I don't see how anyone who had experienced that could sanction letting males into women-only spaces.

I guess in a way this just shows how far down everyone's list women's safety and privacy is.

DH told me a "funny story " the other night about how when he was running along an unlit rural footpath near our home at around 10pm he almost crashed in to another man who he hadn't seen because he wasn't within his head torch beam.
I asked him wasn't he scared? He looked at me like "eh why would I be scared, the man was just walking". But of course he wouldn't be scared would he, as a 6ft tall physically fit man.
I imagine most women wouldn't be on that path alone in the dark anyway because "what did she expect walking there", but if they were would have been terrified to unexpectedly come across a man and have to run past him, therefore turning their back to him - just the thought of it made me shudder.

BinBadger, I just wanted to say thank you for your post. Yes, the difference between kind respectful men and men like Dr Upton is so start.

Recently a junior female colleague came into my office, flustered, and asked to leave early and wfh the rest of the day; she had flooded. Myself and another older woman in the office were briskly reassuring, breezily telling her we've all been there...it was instant female solidarity. We both wanted to minimise her distress and make a shit situation a bit less shit.

Compare and contrast with Dr "I'm a woman because I say I am" Upton's response to a female colleague in a similar situation. He couldn't advertise his maleness more by his response, especially as he stil doesn't get it.

Just coming on to this thread to say that I've been lurking on all 21 threads so far, along with the massive swathe of other lurkers.

In terms of reading the threads in depth, I'm on #18, ED's evidence on Friday, and I want to lay waste to entire parliaments right now.

Thank you @nauticant and @ickky and MN.

Thank you @BinBadger for that story, for sharing it and it does highlight the differences in reactions for men and women. I'm glad those men you encountered did the right thing to try and reduce your panic. 💐

I've got so many similar stories it could fill a book. I think it pretty much boils down to the phrase "good men stay out so the bad men stand out". DU is not a good man. If he wants to identify as a woman, fine, but the fact he wants to do that AND access single sex spaces and immediately make women in there feel unsafe etc proves that he is not a good man. If Dr Beth Upton was using the male changing facilities then ultimately we would not be on thread 21 of a horrifying ET and nobody would know who he is (other than his friends and family). It's his choices (bad choices) that have led to this.

It was a different thread but I confessed that I want to go full on Lord of the Rings - Helms Deep and Gates of Mordor - on the doors of NHS England.

Thought you meant "You cannot pass!" there, Rethinking, and then I realised I was on the wrong book.

So many women with so many very, very visceral reactions to what was said in this tribunal.

All amounting to: Tear. It. All. Down.

Oh, that's hilarious.

I wonder if they've got a case?

From what she says, no they don't. They're claiming that people might be confused by her leaflet!!! Snort.

Given she's practically saying what they're saying, what does that even mean??

The persecution of KJK not withstanding, I'd almost pay to see that in court.

I've thought a few times about starting a thread on that, but worried about it being co-oped by some of the viler trolls that attempt story-fishing threads.

And for me, 7.

I do love how she pushes stuff and swears her head off all the time, looking like Marilyn Monroe who just walked out of a beauty salon.

As far as i am aware Private Eye have been in and out of court hundreds of times over the same issue of parody and won.

Its not like she has put the posters up in a doctors changing room just on her sites that one ought to know what they are about.

Every time I think I've peaked, a higher mountain appears.

In this tribunal, my anger bubbled over when DU said he'd experienced misogyny too. Thank god we were all on mute at that point...

I reckon if it had been warm enough to have the windows open, we could all have heard and joined in the chorus of "Oh, for FUCK'S SAKE!". It would have been like the sweary version of clapping for the NHS during the pandemic.

Can't watch the video at work - can anyone summarise?

@Vegemiteandhoneyontoast said:
'I asked someone I had regarded as a friend a similar question. 'Knowing that the toilets were empty, what would you do if you saw a ten year old girl being followed into the toilets by a middle aged man?'. 'It's really difficult!' he whined. 'It's not difficult at all' I said, but he wouldn't have it. At that point the mask slipped and I never saw him the same way again.'

Yes, I agree. Some people have just lost their ability to stand up for the truth and reality due to this ideology unfortunately. It definitely changes how you think about them.

@Datun said:
'Upton said of course it should be a female. And he is a female.

TRAs have done it on here before. There is absolutely no reasoning with them. It's delusion. And I don't think they're deluded as to their sex, I think they're deluded as to how people will accept what they're saying.

but yes, it's a great question. Because it absolutely shows up what's going on.'

I should maybe refine the question to include 'a female nurse (to clarify that is an AFAB member of the large gamete sex class)' to make it crystal clear. However, showing who will pretend and go along with the LARPing is helpful in itself as Vegimite said above; from then on, you know the person is a liar about material reality. People who are just 'being kind' will hopefully see the damage that pretending can do, and all of us sadly could be in a car crash or other accident that results in hospitalisation and the need for intimate care.

This.

Until you are in that situation, you cannot imagine just how vulnerable you are and how being frightened like that impacts decision making (and how important the decisions can be).

Sorry this happened to you 💐
I was 15. Male family 'friend', a doctor, included intimate examinations as things to 'teach' me on work experience. I won't go into details. Total abuse of his position and my parents' trust. Done so insidiously it took me ages to realise how wrong it was but I refused to go back when he said he'd show me (on me) how to do an internal vaginal examination the next time. I told my parents I was ill. Didn't tell them what had happened because didn't want to cause them any stress on top of existing family stresses. Carried the guilt of not reporting it for years in case he'd done similar to anyone else. Reported a few years ago. Police said no other complaints against him and didn't have enough to take it any further.

Sorry that happened to you 💐
It's so sad and infuriating how common this seems to be.

Appallingly common, and why women know we need female-only spaces for times when we are undressed or otherwise vulnerable, and why we need to keep men out of them.