NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #21

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20

I doubt the courts would regard calling himself Beth as an attempt to deceive - names are not a reliable indication of sex or gender. However, his insistence that he is a woman and can provide care to a patient who specifically requests a female doctor is another matter. If he acts on this he should be convicted of assault. Indeed, depending on the circumstances, he could be convicted of sexual assault.

This sounds as if activists are advising each other to overlook (say) tribunals and outcomes in the expectation that non-judiciable processes will be favoured and ultimately prevail? And then be ‘hard law’?

However, his insistence that he is a woman and can provide care to a patient who specifically requests a female doctor is another matter.

This was the bit I was referring to, not the name. Some names are used by either sex, although usually a slightly different spelling.

They may be. That approach can work on a subject where the only voices politicians hear are those of activists. That is why it is so important that GC voices are heard and refuse to be shouted down.

Is anyone going to the Scottish Labour Party conference in Glasgow this weekend? I'm not a member, but I'd be really interested to hear what the general views are among the crowd there i.e. peaked vs captured.

Responding to up thread question about the SP disciplinary and the misgendering charge.

Statements to a court and witness evidence in a court have what is called “absolute privilege”

NHS Fife can not discipline her about that.

So in any disciplinary hearing such an allegation would have to be about what she said in the workplace.

Even then it would to involve persistent behaviour such as following DU around saying your a man to constitute harassment.

We only know of the CR incident that occurred, and that would be for good reason, if she referred to his sex.

So it would be a trumped up charge in all likelihood.

hence the fresh tribunal to complain about a new harassment of her.

based on info we have.

Surely it is misrepresenting someones gender and consequentially, sex in the eyes of a reasonable observer - in law misrepresentation is looked on unfavourably and is a component of illegality, but not when it comes to sex it seems.........

He is clearly misrepresenting his sex, but I doubt the courts would class a man using a name that is traditionally regarded as feminine as misrepresentation on its own. If they did, I know a number of people who would be in trouble. It might be an element of misrepresentation but it is not, in and of itself, misrepresentation.

Agreed but at the point a woman asks for a female doctor and he puts his hand up.......?????

Spineless weasel speaks

https://x.com/dsanderson_85/status/1892162077738877111?s=46

Why aren't the journalists asking about the actual law that covers Peggie's case - workplace H&S law, not the equality act? This is starting to piss me off that they keep getting away with sidestepping on that. 'Guidance' from Scotgov - does it cover that at all? Or is it the same activist written nonsense we've been seeing for years?

But nobody has said that this case is about Beth/Theo's name. We have heard that Sandie did use the name Beth. She objected that a person of his physical sex was in the changing room.

I can see that a patient being told that "Nurse Sand(y)(ie) or Nurse Les(ley)(lie) will be in to take your obs", might well not know what sex the nurse was, although we would still tend to assume female as the default.

At that point it goes beyond misrepresentation in my view and we are into assault, possibly sexual assault.

In my experience doctors are usually referred to as 'doctor' anyway with no first name.

You would also be relying on people never having names like Alex or Jo or Mackenzie or Apple or Zowie, to say nothing of names that are less common in the UK.

Let me help.

^I want to take a moment to acknowledge the challenging period we are navigating as an
organisation. The ongoing and highly publicised employment tribunal in recent weeks has understandably generated a great deal of interest and debate, both in the media and online.^

With the hearing now being extended into July, I fully appreciate the impact this continued scrutiny is having on colleagues across NHS Fife. And my own future in this job.

For obvious reasons, we are unable to comment on legal proceedings. As a public sector body, we are bound by strict legal and ethical responsibilities, which means we cannot engage in public debate through blogs, media briefings, or social media. However, I want to reassure you that NHS Fife remains committed to fairness, integrity, and respect for all of the men involved. As a woman of a certain age, Sandie Peggie is naturally excluded from this respect.

Much of what is reported in the media or discussed online does not reflect the full picture. Because we didn't disclose it, despite being told to by the court.

At the heart of this situation are valued members of NHS Fife staff and it is essential that they are treated with dignity, respect, and kindness.* Again, this doesn't apply to mere nurses of thirty years standing, who want to uphold their legal right* change their clothes in a single sex place.

^As an organisation, we place our trust in the independent legal process and will await its
ruling in due course.^ We are fucked, but are still defending the indefensible. If you are at all unwell, we recommend seeking treatment elsewhere. Especially if you are a woman of the biological variety.

Myself and my daughter have been in a situation in hospital where we are in very vulnerable situations, bedbound for days. My daughter has had to make life changing decisions based on facts that the doctors gave to her. She was literally putting her life in their hands and giving consent to do an operation that had a significant chance of fatal consequences on the chance it could improve her life going forward. It was terrifying. How can you make a rational, informed decisions when you know the doctor is lying to all around him and the staff are facilitating this. How can you trust and take such critical advice from such a doctor? It’s cruel and obscene.

But let's not get sidetracked with the name, because that's not the problem. Nor to our knowledge did she ever refuse to work with him.

I take your point, there has been a cross-thread of sorts as I posed the scenario where a female patient asked for a female doctor to attend to her needs and he, claiming that he is a biological female and knowingly and intentionally misrepresenting his sex, volunteers for the task. Just absurd.

Thanks ROGC, it's useful to have a male perspective.

During COVID my male partner told me that a man had challenged him for walking the wrong way over a bridge while there were restrictions. He said he was surprised "because people usually back down or go round me"

I was quite taken aback just thinking about our different experiences. He's a strong supporter of women's rights and single-sex spaces, yet his experience of the world is so different from mine.

I have wondered lately what age posters were when they first experienced sexual assault (prolonged non consensual groping, deep kissing). In my case, 14 and 15 1/2 . Each time a male I hardly knew. There were other women who could have offered support and didn't. It changed my world view for ever. I think some women who are blasé about this have just been lucky.

The NHS is now threatening to sue Kellie Jay Keen:

(sending a letter to her headed "Dear Sirs"!!!)

The NHS have amazingly deep pockets, full of our money.
Nobody, nothing seems able to stop them.

FFS.

Sorry that happened to you xx
For me, aged 10 I think, an older male (?late teens) pushed me up against a wall in the back street, groped up my skirt inside my underwear.

I was too ashamed/scared to tell anyone - I was actually with my family who'd just gone into the house before me, but felt if I told them I'd get into trouble.

From that Mail link:

She (SP) has been humiliated and tormented by unthinking bureaucrats whose minds have been addled by the deranged advice of trans activist groups which - largely funded by the Scottish Government - have spent years bullying public bodies into bending to their demands, even when the law should have prevented them from doing so.

Would I ever read a paragraph like that in the Guardian? I ought to, but doubt I will in my lifetime.

No requirement for this to be in the Gazette. You can just change your name.