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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another GC Employment Tribunal: Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #4

1000 replies

nauticant · 23/01/2024 19:31

Roz Adams was employed by Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC) as a counsellor. She is claiming constructive dismissal for Gender Critical (GC) beliefs. The CEO of ERCC is a well known transwoman known for, among other things, controversial "reframe your trauma" remarks.

There's live tweeting from https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets or if Twitter doesn't show the tweets, look at https://nitter.net/tribunaltweets. There's an informative substack here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre

This post explains how to get access to watch the hearing: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2?page=24&reply=132419912

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
RA: Roz Adams, the claimant
NC: Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
ERCC or R: Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, the respondent
DH: David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent
KM or KT: Katy McTernan, ERCC Senior management
MR: Mairi Rosko, ERCC Board Member
MS: Miren Sagues, ERCC Board Member
KH: Katie Horburgh, ERCC Board Member
AB: ERCC staff member (name redacted)
NCi: Nico Ciubotariu, COO of ERCC
MW: Mridul Wadhwa, CEO of ERCC
BP: Beira's Place

RA gave evidence over 15-18 January 2024.

Witnesses:
Nicole Jones (NJ): 18 January 2024 (on behalf of RA)
Mairi Rosko (MR): 19 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katy McTernan (referred to both as KT and KM): 22-23 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Miren Sagues (MS): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)
Katie Horburgh (KH): 24 January 2024 (on behalf of ERCC)

Thread #1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4985570-another-gc-employment-tribunal-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crsis
Thread #2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2
Thread #3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4990903-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-3

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
ickky · 24/01/2024 14:13

GCITC · 24/01/2024 14:08

91 members of the public currently watching.

This is quite incredible seeing as no one knew this was even happening 2 weeks ago.

Appalonia · 24/01/2024 14:13

Sees Muslim women who may not be able to understand trans inclusive policy

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2024 14:14

Onto the service users that MW would specifically see eg Muslim users who shouldn't necessarily have English as mother tongue and wouldn't necessity understand info available on website is assigned to MW and may find herself in a room talking about her sexual trauma to MW

Witness see nothing wrong with that

Appalonia · 24/01/2024 14:14

You see nothing wrong with Muslim women alone with MW in a room talking about her trauma?

No

ickky · 24/01/2024 14:14

Appalonia · 24/01/2024 14:12

MW sees non white SU s

I wonder why they don't see white SU's?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/01/2024 14:14

Wadhwa is not just biologically male, but legally male.

Somanyquestionstoaskaboutthis · 24/01/2024 14:14

Appalonia · 24/01/2024 14:13

Sees Muslim women who may not be able to understand trans inclusive policy

JFC

Appalonia · 24/01/2024 14:14

God this just gets worse

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2024 14:15

We all know this but it's horrifying to hear these things asked in a court room.

Appalonia · 24/01/2024 14:15

It's basically fraud

nauticant · 24/01/2024 14:16

NC asks what happens if MW doesn't mention they're a transwoman. Where does that leave the service user?

OP posts:
NoBinturongsHereMate · 24/01/2024 14:16

From that: "Our service is open to anyone who self identifies as a woman, trans woman, trans man or non-binary person."

So the only people not included are men, except trans men.

If transmen are men, how do they justify (to themselves, or under the EA) excluding some men but not other completely indistinguishable men?

Mmmnotsure · 24/01/2024 14:16

NC you said ercc not hiding c trans policy cos website made policy clear. But there is nothing to indicate that while the centre says it employs no men it leaves open the possibility that it employs males iding as women

MS but for us TWAW

NC nothing unambiguous in your policy to tell su that some of the women in this centre may be biologically male. Or Mr Hay could help you to find something, to save time

NC is your trans incl policy on your website

MS our t-incl statement is

MS it says TWAW on our statement so it's implied

NC is that sufficient to make it clear to all service users they may meet someone with a male body

MS not with a male body, just TW or nb

NC when MW sees service users, is that the [?] team [this is team which would include muslim users]

MS MW - yes that team

NC so first lang might not be English. Would it be clear to a muslim woman, not mother tongue English, rape survivor, assigned to MW and finding herself alone in a room talking about her sexual trauma to MW. That's a possible scenario.

MS y

NC and you see nothing wrong with that

MS no

NC nobody in ercc would have told this woman that MW not bio female but a tw

MS The first thing MW explains is who she is and her background. And any su who wants to change sw can do so.

NC You have to trust MW to do that. She passes pretty well as female. People often don't realise she is male.

MS agrees

NC you are simply relying on MW to make that disclosure at the beginning with a client.

MS yes

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2024 14:16

Bastards. Just utter Fucking bastards.

Appalonia · 24/01/2024 14:16

Imagine what this night be like for a Muslim rape survivor?

ArabellaScott · 24/01/2024 14:16

nauticant · 24/01/2024 14:16

NC asks what happens if MW doesn't mention they're a transwoman. Where does that leave the service user?

As a traumatised survivor in a room with a large male person who is lying to them.

ArabellaScott · 24/01/2024 14:17

I don't know if MW does face to face counselling, btw. 'In a room' is a metaphorical sense.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/01/2024 14:17

I'm reminded of what Wadhwa did at the party as mentioned in the blog post.

nauticant · 24/01/2024 14:18

MW does do counselling and there's no suggestion it was not face-to-face.

OP posts:
Mmmnotsure · 24/01/2024 14:18

NC and in any case what might this be like for a muslim rape survivor, possibly not good English, traumatised by a male rapist, told she has an appt with a woman, sits in a room alone with someone she has taken for a woman is a tw.

NC Imagine that is a woman who thinks sex is about bodies, and just been told the person she's expected to pour her heart out to is bio male. Can you imagine how that su might feel violated all over again.

MS she might understand even if not good english. Some muslim women will be gc and some might be gi.

Appalonia · 24/01/2024 14:18

How might she feel? Violated all over again?

there are Muslims that believe TWAW

ArabellaScott · 24/01/2024 14:19

nauticant · 24/01/2024 14:18

MW does do counselling and there's no suggestion it was not face-to-face.

Edited

I seem to recall a woman on here describing her counselling with MW and him checking his phone etc during it - I assume that means it was face to face.

Mmmnotsure · 24/01/2024 14:19

MS I don't know at what point the su who comes in will know c MW. I don't know.

NC why would they know c MW? You've said over again that TWAW and su can't know sex of sw

GCITC · 24/01/2024 14:19

ickky · 24/01/2024 14:13

This is quite incredible seeing as no one knew this was even happening 2 weeks ago.

Did you not get notice last month when your cheque from the far right came through? Grin

Brefugee · 24/01/2024 14:19

Hild0 · 24/01/2024 13:55

I must go back and reread The Crucible.

perhaps a theatre group can update it for the modern times and have it as an ET? to counterbalance the piece that is apparently going to be produced and will put JKR in the crosshairs?

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