Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

[beachcitygirl]

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

What is a woman, in your view?

Why do you ask? What does it mean to you?

YABU

Self-ID is the very antithesis of nuance.

Your thread is about women on a women's rights board. Any discussion requires that we begin by defining our terms

If you don't wish to discuss fine, but why must you poison a thread to push your agenda? Can't you allow other women a single thread on this board without being subjected to aggressive digs.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.

Also

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

Sounds like what you really want is a place for your own views to go unchallenged, that's not what I'd call "good faith".

If you don't wish to discuss fine, but why must you poison a thread to push your agenda?

And we're off with the insults already.

Good faith, like so many other things these days, doesn't mean what I thought it did.

You’ve answered a question with another question. Is that a discussion?.

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women

Please define what a woman is first. We need a starting point.

So how do we discuss whether a woman can have a penis if your mind is made up OP? How do we discuss that only women (adult human females) gestate and birth babies if you're unhappy with anyone expressing that fact.
Might help if you clarify what rules are you allowing for the "discussion" ?

It would have been useful if you could demonstrate your good faith by responding to a genuine question - in good faith

Thanks for starting this thread, OP - it'll be great to get some clear answers to convince anyone who's still on the fence. Mr Sand is right, it's probably best to start by defining our terms so we're all on the same page. What is a woman, in your view?

If you believe that 'trans women should be treated in every aspect as women' then are you in favour of trans women with male bodies being incarcerated in women's prisons?

didn’t we have one of these before which was basically “can I have a thread where no one disagrees with me” 🤔

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women

But what does that mean?

How do you treat someone as a woman?

You shouldn't be treating someone as a woman - that would be sexist! Sex shouldn't normally matter.

What we're objecting to is the misclassification as female, on the few occasions when sex does matter. In those few circumstances we are distinguishing and separating people for a reason, and the reasoning is based on sex.

For example, we have female sports because women have a different body type. "People who call themselves women" do NOT have a different body type, so it does not make sense to classify on that basis.

If the government is made up of 50% men and 50% trans women, do we have gender equality?

If you want one of those, it's best to stick to AIBU, eyeballs. 😉

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

OK, please explain, I'm listening. What does it mean to be treated as women? Why are they natural allies? In what ways are women more than their biology? Let's hear why you think the way you do.

How many women are born with a penis?

OP is it possible for someone to self identify as a woman in bad faith? e.g a predator that wants access to women?

That's not the same as saying all self ID is bad faith. I'm saying do you accept that some ( minority ) can self ID in bad faith?

If you can answer yes to that, then you can have a great discussion here. How to separate those who self ID in good faith from those who have ulterior motives behind self IDing as a woman.

How can we tell who is a transwoman and who is a man in a dress, or even just a man who says he's a woman?

Do you think there should be any sort of safeguarding or limitation of male people into female people's spaces (I'm using sex here when I say male/female) based on female people's concerns about male people?

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology

Here’s a good faith question … in fact 2 … for you.

1. Can you think of any drawbacks with that view?
2. Do you acknowledge that others have different lived experiences which means they hold a different view; and should that be supported in law?

Can I ask about Isla Bryson, should they be in a woman's prison since they self id as a woman? If the answer is no where do you draw the line and why?

What protections would you put in place to prevent predatory men self identifying as women?