Page 4 | Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

Skankoot · 27/04/2023 18:28

Papernotplastic · 27/04/2023 18:23

I’m starting to feel like I’m missing out on some secret of womanhood. It’s the fluctuating hormones, the horrific periods, the hips and breasts, the pay gap, the being treated as nothing but hips and breasts by boys and men and the becoming invisible at 40 right? There isn’t a secret decoder ring or a monthly meet up I wasn’t invited to?

We were wrong all along, it's all about wearing dresses and heels and lipstick uwu.

Skankoot · 27/04/2023 18:28

Flounce at 20:48.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 27/04/2023 18:29

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women

//

This is definitely not nuance.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/04/2023 18:30

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women

so offered the pill or the coil as birth control methods, called in for regular smear tests, that sort of thing?

WarriorN · 27/04/2023 18:30

I genuinely want to debate and discuss these views with women who state they do; I'm always sorely disappointed.

nilsmousehammer · 27/04/2023 18:31

What would your plan be for the inclusion and provision of women currently excluded from women's resources, services and care because they have become mixed sex?

W0tnow · 27/04/2023 18:32

OP, your view sounds black and white to me.

WarriorN · 27/04/2023 18:32

My views are that trans women (trans men) should be treated in every aspect as women (men)

So no maternity leave?

Contraception?

CeciNestPasUnPipi · 27/04/2023 18:33

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:40

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

I'd love this, but your first response, and subsequent others, are not in good faith.

Papernotplastic · 27/04/2023 18:33

If you take away the biology, what do women as a group have in common? What makes them a group, beyond them being fellow human beings, though that probably wouldn’t count if we’re excluding biology.

ResisterRex · 27/04/2023 18:33

I'd like this to be a different space

I think your only option is to buy MN and change the rules.

KalimbaMoon · 27/04/2023 18:33

Do you think lesbians who don’t want to date transwomen are transphobic? Is their same-sex attraction valid, or is it cruel for them to reject TW from their dating pool?

axolotlfloof · 27/04/2023 18:34

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/04/2023 18:30

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women

so offered the pill or the coil as birth control methods, called in for regular smear tests, that sort of thing?

😂Probably.

suggestionsplease1 · 27/04/2023 18:34

I guess you talk about things like why the leading countries in the global gender gap index ( which benchmarks national gender gaps on economic, political, education, and health-based criteria) Iceland, Finland, Norway, New Zealand, all have policies of self ID.

These countries are doing the best for women in them on a wide variety of measures...any feminist should surely look to them for inspiration?

Ireland is pretty high up on that list too, they have self ID don't they? Can't see the UK anywhere near the top 10 though. 🤷‍♂️

suggestionsplease1 · 27/04/2023 18:35

https://www.statista.com/statistics/244387/the-global-gender-gap-index/

Global gender gap index 2022 | Statista

The global gender gap index benchmarks national gender gaps on economic, political, education, and health-based criteria.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/244387/the-global-gender-gap-index

PSNonsense · 27/04/2023 18:35

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women

It's impossible without defining what a woman is.

thebaneofmylifeisacat · 27/04/2023 18:36

I thought I was a woman for having periods, miscarrying, getting pregnant, giving birth 4 times and then having a pretty tough menopause but NOOO! It was when I was wearing a frock heels and loopy

! But am confused as don't have an adams Apple, huge hands and feet, and a hairy back plus a sac snd a penis!!! I am also not an entitled arse hole who wants to be admired applauded lied and pandered to.

SpicyMoth · 27/04/2023 18:36

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:40

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

Hi OP, thanks for this!
To clarify where I'm at;

I can accept that sex and gender are different, though if I'm honest I don't see how gender as they've defined it is much different from just... What you like to wear/likes/dislikes/personality based stuff basically.
I can accept self ID, but I really do think doing away with the pre-requisites for it has some serious issues tied to it.
Biology matters, it's not irrelevant
I feel like TWAM is going too far if I'm honest, holding the position that TW are TW does the same thing, just without triggering their dysphoria.
I don't feel trans people are a threat, but I do feel like intentionally vague laws and legislation put in place are not a good thing for anyone. That includes trans people.
I also feel like women are more than our biology, but we're also more than certain clothes or makeup or long hair.
I'm super concerned about being in an echo chamber, so I try and expose myself to opposing views constantly and am always open to having my mind changed - It's just a lot of people aren't making any logical sense to me and aren't bothering to explain why what they say is logical :/

I think the things I'd most like to have a good faith natter on are;

Why is it transphobic to believe a male can't literally become a female and vice versa? (Sex not gender, ofc)

What would be a non-transphobic way of broaching discussions like predators (not trans people, predators), taking advantage of vague trans laws and legislation to gain access to women's spaces such as prisons?

What did you think of the Jubilee video where the interviews trans people alongside detransitioner's?
I thought it did a really good job of covering both sides with a somewhat decent amount of compassion from the trans side that detrans usually aren't afforded from their own community. (If you've not seen it, here's a link; e )

Are there any youtubers or content creators that you would recommend that explain why certain things are transphobic, without them saying "It just is"?
I'm trying to further diversify who I watch, but it's hard to find anyone who actually takes time to explain or change peoples minds - They tend to just say it is, and the viewer is expected to just agree.

What are your views on hormones & surgeries being given to minors?
I've seen the counter argument that rich parents would pay for their child's nose jobs and that gender stuff is no different, but honestly I don't agree with parents paying for kids to have nose jobs either....? I think that's pretty gross to do, you should encourage your child to love themselves as they are.

Now, I know this is probably going to sound stupid and pointless - But I've had this idea for a long while about getting together a bunch of women and trans people from all sides of the isle and trying to make like.. a Youtube style podcast type thing, just having good faith discussions with each other about trans issues and women's issues and trying to find a way forward through the mess.
All anonymous, maybe through discord or something for ease. I'm a digital artist so I could cover the art side of things and do everyone cute little anonymous avatar's that they could go by :')
Would anyone from here be down for working on something like that maybe?

Should Minors Transition? Detransition vs Trans | Middle Ground

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?ab_channel=Jubilee&v=dl0LZZFos-g

FOJN · 27/04/2023 18:37

I guess you talk about things like why the leading countries in the global gender gap index ( which benchmarks national gender gaps on economic, political, education, and health-based criteria) Iceland, Finland, Norway, New Zealand, all have policies of self ID.

The clue is in the word "gender". How many male women are being included in those stats? Perhaps if they used the word sex, things would be clearer.

RoseslnTheHospital · 27/04/2023 18:38

@suggestionsplease1

Here is the actual source of that information

www.weforum.org/reports/global-gender-gap-report-2022/

JolyGoodBloviator · 27/04/2023 18:38

suggestionsplease1 · 27/04/2023 18:34

I guess you talk about things like why the leading countries in the global gender gap index ( which benchmarks national gender gaps on economic, political, education, and health-based criteria) Iceland, Finland, Norway, New Zealand, all have policies of self ID.

These countries are doing the best for women in them on a wide variety of measures...any feminist should surely look to them for inspiration?

Ireland is pretty high up on that list too, they have self ID don't they? Can't see the UK anywhere near the top 10 though. 🤷‍♂️

Why not share the whole list of countries with Self ID, rather than cherry picking a handful to suit your argument?

Argentina, Belgium, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland and Uruguay.

suggestionsplease1 · 27/04/2023 18:39

FOJN · 27/04/2023 18:37

I guess you talk about things like why the leading countries in the global gender gap index ( which benchmarks national gender gaps on economic, political, education, and health-based criteria) Iceland, Finland, Norway, New Zealand, all have policies of self ID.

The clue is in the word "gender". How many male women are being included in those stats? Perhaps if they used the word sex, things would be clearer.

Haha that is hilarious, thanks for the laugh 😂

BonfireLady · 27/04/2023 18:39

WarriorN · 27/04/2023 18:30

I genuinely want to debate and discuss these views with women who state they do; I'm always sorely disappointed.

Yep, same.

I fully respect someone's belief in a gender identity, even though I don't have a gender identity myself. I have a biology - I am a woman. But no gender identity.

So as a start point, I'd say I'm pretty liberal in the "GC world". Very much like religion - I'm an atheist but I respect that others believe in a god (or multiple gods in some cases).

However, I'm still trying to find a way in to a good faith debate. If I'm told as a ground rule that I can't dismiss self-ID, I'd like to understand why I shouldn't. I do dismiss it as I don't believe it works. Does that mean I'm not welcome in the conversation OP?

Soontobe60 · 27/04/2023 18:39

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:40

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

Even the ones that rape?

suggestionsplease1 · 27/04/2023 18:39

JolyGoodBloviator · 27/04/2023 18:38

Why not share the whole list of countries with Self ID, rather than cherry picking a handful to suit your argument?

Argentina, Belgium, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland and Uruguay.

Show quote history

Taking the leading 4 countries is hardly cherry picking