Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

[beachcitygirl]

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

If the government is made up of 50% men and 50% trans women, do we have gender equality?

Well, yes, if you believe in gender, but you don't have sex equality. The two are not synonyms, and gender equality is in no way a substitute for sex equality.

You could maybe argue for monitoring both simultaneously. The problem is genderologists would insist on not monitoring for sex equality.

@beachcitygirl why do you think that women who are critical of gender ideology think that women are not "more than their biology"?

@FOJN nope.

I just want a space where it not a "we've all made up our minds and are calling trans women men " space.

There will be some on here who have genuine questions or issues but don't like the transphobia, don't want jumped on, don't subscribe to trans women are men but have a few worries or want to discuss further. I've stated where I'm at. But around 5 years ago I was very anti self id. Thankfully I had a brilliant person take the time to talk to me non-judgmentally and patiently and eventually I realised all my questions had been answered and all I was left with was

"Thats not common sense " and as an educated woman I recognised that is not good sense and so I thought hard and i recognised my misgivings came from a fear of the other.

Where does self Id fit with the ability of a disabled woman to request female only care?

Why must she place a male's feelings above hers?

That's really interesting, OP - I think we all hope that we be equally willing to learn. Can you answer some of our questions, to help us understand?

The definition is the point I struggle - how about this one - what is a trans woman? That’s the point I struggled with, when does someone tip over from being a man to being a trans woman, can the difference be defined? Do we risk catching effeminate men in a criteria or risk excluding butch woman from being counted as woman.

or would it make sense as a society to say a woman is anything you want it to be, and therefore can’t be a legal or practical category anymore. I’d be fine with having female rather than women’s as a category so trans people were clearly catered for - eg no more “women’s prisons” but “female prisons” which would house woman, trans men, NB female bodied people, and male prisons for men, trans woman and NB male bodied. I’d be fine with hearing “he won the female 100m sprint” if “he” in question was a trans man.

but I know on here a lot of people have a strong belief we shouldn’t just let go of the word woman. Which I’m sympathetic to, but think practically it’s the best way forward.

I just want a space where it not a "we've all made up our minds and are calling trans women men " space.

You've already made up your mind but we're not allowed to participate in a discussion unless we agree with you.

Look I can't make it any plainer but that does not meet the criteria for a good faith discussion.

BTW if transwomen are not men then surely I, born female, can be a transwoman?
If not, why not?

I just want a space where it not a "we've all made up our minds and are calling trans women men " space.

Do you think men are discussing this about transmen?

Why do women have to do this mental load stuff for some men who want to wear impractical clothes and spend a fortune on makeup?

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology

Everyone is more than their biology. But biology is the only thing that unites all women into a group. Everyone should be treated in chat, at work, in conversations etc as a unique individual without stereotyping that person based on perceptions of gender / assumptions of what all men like / women like. We shouldn’t assume that because someone is a man, they’re going to want to chat about football, or because someone is a woman, they’ll care about makeup or spa days. People of course stereotype all the time and it’s annoying. Most of the time it shouldn’t matter at all if someone is male or female, because the breadth of personalities, likes and dislikes, skills and abilities is so overlapping that making assumptions based on male/ female is sexist and regressive.

But sometimes it matters. It matters when some sets of people are much more at risk from others. It matters when some sets of people are likely to be affected in a different way by their biology. Many of the male/female separate categories exist to enable women to participate in life equally and fairly, and when they’re treated as free for all cos some male person thinks he’s in the same category, women lose out. Again.

😂

Be nice ladies

Hi beachcitygirl,

I am happy to treat everyone as a human being.

Having learned that some men are erotic cross dressers perhaps in addition to gender dysphoria, perhaps just for the thrill of it, I do not consent to being a prop in another person's fetish. Actually, this is possibly not the right thread for this point either, as the same applies whether an individual has a GRC or not.

So what is your stance on that (people with an erotic cross dressing fetish demanding access to opposite sex spaces and the people in them) and why?

Why would it be problematic for you to call trans men men (say, an 18 yr old female who identifies as male) and pop them in a male only prison?

Do you think that's safe?

But youve made up your mind OP - you think men can be women. That’s fine - if you want to believe that go ahead but it’s impossible to change sex and laws should be based on fantasies in mens heads about how it “feels” to be a woman

You've already made up your mind but we're not allowed to participate in a discussion unless we agree with you.

Exactly. In any case, I don't think you'll find many people who haven't decided whether they know what a woman is or not, OP. What is there to ask questions about, really?

I actually really miss the times back in late 90s when I was into clubbing in Leeds/Manchester. Drag queens/men in dresses shared the toilet with us/did make up etc, they were all screamingly camp and if a “man” had dared front up to any of the girls they (the DQs) would have shredded them! It all felt very fun and totally non threatening although of course a lot of it was performative, look at us all but the same loo aren’t we marvellous type thing. Shades of Kim Cattrall becoming mates with the tranny prostitutes (her words) in SATC.

It’s all totally different now because it’s been hijacked by disgusting AGP men who honestly just don’t care about women. They don’t love and support women. And you can’t put the genie back in the bottle can you.

How about in sport? Is it OK for an adult man to self ID as a woman and play full contact rugby with women?

if not why not?

So you’ve made your mind up, but you only want to talk to people who haven’t?

But around 5 years ago I was very anti self id.

Of course you were.

I think we've got a new, "I'm as GC as they come but...."

they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy

A lot of online discourse by TRAs make it painfully clear that this is not the case at all.

Do you think all women should suppress their fear of the other? Or are there some groups of women (people really of all groups, but we're talking about women here) who have a good reason to be fearful of the other and may need their own spaces to work through this? Possibly never managing to work through it to be honest.

I'm thinking specifically of women people who have been sexually assaulted who have a visceral reaction to male bodied people in what should be a safe space. It seems to me that it's compassionate and logical for these women to retain their safe spaces.

As there are lots of women who embrace transwomen as their sisters, it shouldn't be a problem to have these female only spaces and mixed spaces for those who don't have these concerns.

There are other situations, female sports for example, where "fear of the other" obviously isn't the case - were you given other reasons for males being able to fairly identify into female sport?

If trans women are women, then you can't define what a woman is. Because what would that definition be based on? Feelings? Aren't men capable of a full range of feelings? Make up, clothes, mannerisms? Surely these are stereotypes and superficial ones at that. If you can't define what a woman is, then you cannot protect a woman in law or policy.

If you have males in women's sports, prisons or other single sex facilities, then why have separate facilities and institutions at all? We must establish why an institution is separate.

If trans women are our natural allies against misogyny, then why all the misogynistic threats and intimidation from the TRA sector? Shouldn't trans women be speaking out against it more often? (tbf a few do)

@beachcitygirl maybe it would be easier for you to summarise the 5 years of gentle persuasion that made you realise that there's no issue and any concerns about women's rights and safety are unnecessary? Rather than be one person responding to many peoples questions.

I don’t understand the ‘women are more than their biology’ bit. What is a woman if you take away biology? Feminists already won the fight (or I thought we had) over not liking makeup or skirts or things society labels as ‘feminine’ - it doesn’t make you less of a woman.

Oh thank goodness someone has come along to educate us. Because our GC views are just based on ignorance and fear, we hadn't thought this through at all before now.

But around 5 years ago I was very anti self id. Thankfully I had a brilliant person take the time to talk to me non-judgmentally and patiently and eventually I realised all my questions had been answered and all I was left with was

"Thats not common sense " and as an educated woman I recognised that is not good sense and so I thought hard and i recognised my misgivings came from a fear of the other.

Would that brilliant person have been a transwoman by any chance? Once you get to know a TW individual, YOU may not feel in any way threatened by their presence in an opposite sex space. But I will.

I would be interested to know the questions you had and how you were answered, if you are willing to share?