Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

[beachcitygirl]

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

How do we know that males who ID as women are not corrupting the data in those countries?

These countries are doing the best for women in them on a wide variety of measures

But they are not, are they?

There are women staying in life threatening abusive homes because men will not permit there to be a choice of women only facilities. 3 women die a week: no one is measuring as far as I'm aware how many have so far died that might have lived if they'd been able to go into a refuge. I have heard a refuge manager on women's hour share that she has women on her caseload who will not come to the centre because men are there. How those men identify does not change accessibility for her, her needs are not based on what is happening in the head of a man.

Just one example.

The rapes in prison.
The assaults stacking up in toilets and changing rooms.
The rape crisis services now inaccessible.
The lesbian groups going underground.

You can only continue the positive, happy narrative of 'everything is lovely for women' by selecting your reality and blocking out the information you do not like. And by demonstrating that you value female people only when they revolve their lives and needs around the wishes and preferences of male people.

I don't call that 'doing the best for women', I call that FUBAR. A dystopia that women need help to escape.

"My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology."

If a male can be a woman in all instances, how does that work with sport?

And if it doesn't work with sport, then how can it be considered a valid statement that these males are women in every aspect?

🤣

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women

Hi op. My question that is like to discuss is why? Why is the aim for there to be no difference? Is difference not in? Why wouldn’t you treat trans women in the way that suitable for them as transwomen?

I mean if you take healthcare it is obvious that you treat women and transwomen differently because you have to in order to adequately meet their different health needs. Why the obsession with treating people exactly the same? Surely it makes more sense to treat them according to their individual circumstances and needs?

Is it fair to women to treat transwomen exactly the same in sports? No.

Difference is ok. Treating people differently is not inherently a bad thing if they have different needs.

Why is my question funny?

"Thankfully I had a brilliant person take the time to talk to me non-judgmentally and patiently and eventually I realised all my questions had been answered and all I was left with was"

What questions did you have, and what were their replies that helped you understand?

OP has done a runner already haven't they?

I wonder what goes their their heads? "I'll show them" followed shortly by "oh shit, time to vamoose"

I get a lot of deja vu here........

Well it was a school strike day so that might explain it

To add... I can articulate why I don't believe it works. Just checking I'm welcome to do so before I do.

It is a sex pay gap, not a 'gender pay gap'.

And this statistic in particular, is driven largely by the oppression and the sexist discrimination that female employees face due to our female body. The body that has the capability to carry and birth human beings.

Making this a 'gender gap' then measures males who are included who have not experienced negative sexist discrimination since their birth and can make these statistics meaningless at an organisational and pay level level.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

If your mind is firmly made up, why do you want discussion if you think it's pointless?

You can hardly argue that those countries are better for the female sex if you are measuring gender without clarifying the criteria for "woman gender". You literally have no idea how many men are being included.

We do know that New Zealand has quite a high rate of domestic violence but maybe those metrics don't matter so much to you.

Malta also has self ID but they would rather wait until a woman was at deaths door before they offered medical intervention to manage an incomplete miscarriage.

I'm surprised you find this funny.

Yes I do think that transwomen and women can be allies, just like Britain and America were during the Second World War. On different continents, not encroaching on each others boundaries.
If you would stop saying transwomen are 'real women' which you know isn't true or you wouldn't call us 'cis'- and let women have their boundaries- separate sports, prisons, refuges, spaces etc.
We could fight against gender conformity together and sex stereotyping, I think there are some areas of agreement once women's rights are acknowledged.

Abortion is completely illegal in Malta & Brazil, and only legal with immediate threat to the woman’s life in Ecuador, Costa Rica & Pakistan.

So perhaps Self ID laws have fuck all to do with whether a country is good for women or not?

I'd like a thread where Nick Cave, and only Nick Cave, responds to my questions.

And his responses must be 'yes'.

Oh and another one OP, again genuine: why is it that so many TQ+ lobbyists see any equality of care for women, or even permitting women to voice their lived experiences and needs in planning, as an existential threat to trans people?

I will confirm this is lobbyists I am asking about, and not T people as a whole themselves, since I have encountered first hand on MN how non T lobbyists can speak to a T person of either sex who has dared to show consideration for women or to move off the lobby message. I thought women were badly treated until I witnessed that: it was far worse.

Sorry, no Nick Cave here. Only Bad Seeds. :'(

i recognised my misgivings came from a fear of the other.
Hm, yes.
My misgivings also spring from 'a fear of the other'. The fear that the other now has untrammelled access to the women's loos and will offend in there. The fear that 'the other' is now locked up with women in prison, allowing sexual assaults...

This is not to say that every trans woman is a predator. But trans women offend JUST LIKE MEN - sexual assault, rape, all that crap. And there is currently no way of knowing which group a given trans woman will fall into.

I'm also concerned that 'the other' now has access to women's sports and will not just knock women off the podium, but might also knock women unconscious (e.g. Riley Gaines).

So, yeah. No thank you.

So some bloke managed to talk you out of your firm belief that people cannot change sex, and that self ID might open up a whole can of safeguarding worms that will impact women and children most. Not because TW are inherently unsafe, but because TW are male, and males are overwhelmingly the sex that are the biggest threat to the safety of women and children. Self ID allows ALL males unfettered access to vulnerable women and children without any doubt.
But you were persuaded that somehow this isn't the case. Even thought the delightful Isla proved it was, along with the equally delightful Katie Dolatowski.

My question is, why on earth would any woman put the feelings of a man who thinks hes a woman ahead of actual women? It makes no sense.

I am actually fearful for Nick cage’s safety at this point

It's okay. I will be very nice.

Wrong Nic.

Language is evolving at an alarming rate these days.

Plenty of women are against abortion.

That analysis that I posted is helpful because it looks at the big picture for how women are faring in countries, rather than targeting a specific issue, eg abortion, which unfortunately many people (women included) don't perceive as a woman's rights issue in the first place.