Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

[beachcitygirl]

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

But around 5 years ago I was very anti self id. Thankfully I had a brilliant person take the time to talk to me non-judgmentally and patiently and eventually I realised all my questions had been answered and all I was left with was

Was that before or after the pigs flew overhead?

Go on then, enlighten us on why the brilliant person says the following are OK:
Biological males in women's sports
Isla Bryson in a women's prison.

Can't wait.

'yes'

That analysis that I posted is helpful because it looks at the big picture for how women are faring in countries

"Muddling sex data reduces visible sex differences" isn't really a knock-out argument in favour of muddling sex data.

Sad face.

Another question OP.

You may know about this: Sarah Summers, who posts on mumsnet, is currently suing a rape crisis centre because they refuse to provide a female-only service to women who've been raped. They provide services for trans women and women, and for trans people only. But they refuse to provide a woman only service. Sarah is suing them on this basis - that she, along with many other women, need a woman only service. She doesn't want to stop them from providing services to trans women.

What do you think about that? Is Sarah a bigot?

😍

😍😘

Is OP away already?

Oh damn it!

Oooo yes

I’m afraid for both of them 😀

thats what i get for mumsnetting and watching dh cook…..hes had a bad microwave experience 😀

I'd say Britain and the USSR is a better analogy: occasionally on the same side against a common enemy, but Britain had better watch its back, or the Soviets will have nabbed Poland, Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan...

..in fact, it's starting to look a bit as if the USSR doesn't respect other people's boundaries 🤔

Did we get a definition of terms yet?

I hope not, I'm genuinely open to having my mind changed and would genuinely appreciate the discourse >.<

You know in these countries less than 1% of the population (or around 0.5% of mtf) ID as trans, right?

That is not going to have a hugely dramatic impact on the findings.

Same, SpicyMoth. But I really don't see how we can have a good faith discussion without explanation of the terms involved. Seems quite important. Otherwise we think we're discussing Nick Cave, but in fact we're on Nick Cage.

I meant to send the evil eye to Arabella. Because she was sending Nick heart eyes and I want to be the only one who does that.

😈

Hi OP, I would like to know the process by which Eddie /Suzie Izzard swaps between girl mode and boy mode.

What happens to their essence to allow them to use facilities with young women and then play male roles.
Asking because I’d like to benefit from the patriarchy at will.

NicCageisnotNickCave

seriously!

😩

@beachcitygirl - if you are still reading - the question about “how do you define the word woman” matters because it really does seem to be the sticking point for many fence sitters - if TW are woman, then what is the thing that they are. How can people who aren’t sure get their head round the debate without the other side’s view of “what is a woman” ?

for the GC argument- a woman is “an adult human female” the only bit up for debate is when do you define the “adult” bit (18, 21, post puberty etc). And laws and services are based on this. If the definition is changing to include TW, what is that new definition. When does a male bodied person move from being classed as a man to being classed as a woman? I can’t answer that.

Thing is Spicy, that I am always reviewing my opinion in view of new developments. I don't know many regular posters who are not constantly reviewing new developments, that is why we discuss them in the minute detail that we do sometimes.

What about trans women who have not socially or medically transitioned and present as male?

Must they be treated as women in changing rooms, hospital wards and rape crisis shelters when women born female are naked and / or vulnerable?

😘

But it does when you start drilling into data by organisation for issues such as remuneration by sex and by pay range. It would also impact health statistics for certain health issues and diseases ( you mentioned health).

As with most things, it is the detail where the issues lay.

Or pop off to net mums

Oh, op is here at the mo

Is Mumsnet shutting down GC views? FAO Justine Roberts www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4794016-is-mumsnet-shutting-down-gc-views-fao-justine-roberts