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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

1000 replies

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:40

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

OP posts:

Thread gallery

angiec89 · 27/04/2023 18:11

Agree completely with your view OP, not sure there will be many others on here though

JolyGoodBloviator · 27/04/2023 18:11

Do you believe Lord Simon, 3rd Baron of Wythenshawe should have to give up the hereditary peerage that is [his] birthright now that she is legally a woman and pass it to [his] heir presumptive, a cousin Michael?

Baron Matilda Simon does not.

Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

countrypunk · 27/04/2023 18:11

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:59

@FOJN nope.

I just want a space where it not a "we've all made up our minds and are calling trans women men " space.

There will be some on here who have genuine questions or issues but don't like the transphobia, don't want jumped on, don't subscribe to trans women are men but have a few worries or want to discuss further. I've stated where I'm at. But around 5 years ago I was very anti self id. Thankfully I had a brilliant person take the time to talk to me non-judgmentally and patiently and eventually I realised all my questions had been answered and all I was left with was

"Thats not common sense " and as an educated woman I recognised that is not good sense and so I thought hard and i recognised my misgivings came from a fear of the other.

It would be really interesting to hear what your questions were and how this person answered them in such a way as to utterly convince you that 'trans women should be treated as women' in every respect.

I would also like to hear your definition of woman, and your definition of trans woman. I'm particularly interested to hear how you suggest we police this and separate the genuine trans women from men who would like to enter women's spaces for nefarious reasons?

Full disclosure: I believe single sex should mean exactly that, and no man should gain access to women's spaces no matter how he identifies.

I also believe (know) a woman is an adult human female, and never a feeling in a man's head. I believe men redefining the word woman to include them is the ultimate patriarchal act.

ditalini · 27/04/2023 18:12

angiec89 · 27/04/2023 18:11

Agree completely with your view OP, not sure there will be many others on here though

You could really help then by answering some of these questions - not really fair on beachcitygirl to have to hold up one end of the discussion on her own.

RoseslnTheHospital · 27/04/2023 18:13

angiec89 · 27/04/2023 18:11

Agree completely with your view OP, not sure there will be many others on here though

Well, just mysteriously referring to a person persuading her of her errors isn't really massively convincing is it? So what is it about the OPs views as posted that you find particularly persuasive and compelling?

JoodyBlue · 27/04/2023 18:14

@ditalini I was going to say the same thing. Fear of the "other" is a rational response to a situation of uncertainty that is no doubt an evolutionary trait. If one watches animals we can perceive it all the time. The natural reticence and the instinct to protect oneself from predators. How women can know which men are predators and which are not is moot - they cannot! So OP please respond, why are you asking human female animals to override their natural instinct to self preservation?

Signalbox · 27/04/2023 18:15

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

Sounds like your mind is made up OP. So what is the point of this thread?

Reallybadidea · 27/04/2023 18:15

"Women are more than their biology" sounds like such a great soundbite that nobody could disagree with. It's bullshit though. Being a woman is literally biology; how you express your personality is obviously very much more than your biology.

Skankoot · 27/04/2023 18:16

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:43

Why do you ask? What does it mean to you?

Ugh.

WarriorN · 27/04/2023 18:16

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

This is very noble.

Thus, transmen are men and more than their biology.

Under such beliefs they do not have any rights to support who their actual biology works such as when they have children.

Both misogynistic and transphobic

countrypunk · 27/04/2023 18:17

@Reallybadidea Exactly that. I'm so sick of being told I'm a biological essentialist because I know that being female refers to my sex and my sex alone.

WarriorN · 27/04/2023 18:18

Or is this an

"edit post?"

Moment?

countrypunk · 27/04/2023 18:19

I didn't mean to sound goady in my response, @beachcitygirl, if you think I did.

I genuinely want to hear your views. Please come back.

Signalbox · 27/04/2023 18:21

Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

Lol at this title 😂

Fairislefandango · 27/04/2023 18:21

Women are more than their biology

Well of course they are. A woman is her biology plus her achievements, experiences, feelings etc. 'Women are more than their biology' doesn't in any way mean that they don't have to have that biology to be a woman. And the weaselly faux-pro-women sound of that soundbite doesn't fool anyone by the way.

MandyMotherOfBrian · 27/04/2023 18:21

Not much discussing going on on this ‘discussion’ is there? Answering questions with questions, all very Pythonesque

NecessaryScene · 27/04/2023 18:22

It would be really interesting to hear what your questions were and how this person answered

I'm reminded of the (US?) woman who repented her gender-critical ways - I forget her name, but she had written several gender-critical articles, and in the end she wrote a long piece about how she now realises how wrong she was - except she totally failed to explain specifically what errors she had made.

If you make an argument, then decide it's wrong, it's not use just saying "I was wrong" - you have have to show what the error was, otherwise you're not actually making a useful contribution, and there's no reason to pay any attention to the statement.

Repentance doesn't negate an actual argument.

Papernotplastic · 27/04/2023 18:23

I’m starting to feel like I’m missing out on some secret of womanhood. It’s the fluctuating hormones, the horrific periods, the hips and breasts, the pay gap, the being treated as nothing but hips and breasts by boys and men and the becoming invisible at 40 right? There isn’t a secret decoder ring or a monthly meet up I wasn’t invited to?

Mycatisalwaysangry · 27/04/2023 18:23

Can you tell me what this person told you? Sounds helpful.

EpicChaos · 27/04/2023 18:24

" My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.
I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

LOLz!
Well looky what we've got here, a whole lot of that black and white thinking the OP doesn't like!

Are we running a sweepstake on the number of posts on this thread before the OP goes full tonto? lol

Good faith indeed! You make i larf!

JoodyBlue · 27/04/2023 18:25

Women are more than their biology No, they are not. Women are their biology. Men are their biology. Girls are their biology. Boys are their biology. Individual people are more than their biology. Biology is the study of bodies.

FOJN · 27/04/2023 18:26

Are we running a sweepstake on the number of posts on this thread before the OP goes full tonto? lol

I thought a hundred posts before a flounce but sometimes we are swines and like to have a bit of fun with posters we can't take seriously so this thread is filling up quite quickly.

axolotlfloof · 27/04/2023 18:26

It's difficult to discuss this seriously with someone who says,
"My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology."
Can you unpack this?
How are they women?
Do you not see there are massive and irresolvable differences?
Everyone is more than their biology, but their biology is who they are.

OhVicIveFallen · 27/04/2023 18:27

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:59

@FOJN nope.

I just want a space where it not a "we've all made up our minds and are calling trans women men " space.

"Thats not common sense " and as an educated woman I recognised that is not good sense and so I thought hard and i recognised my misgivings came from a fear of the other.

Thankfully I had a brilliant person take the time to talk to me non-judgmentally and patiently and eventually I realised all my questions had been answered and all I was left with was

Was this person a man by any chance?

And what did he say that convinced you that it was a good idea to give your and every other women's rights away?

thebaneofmylifeisacat · 27/04/2023 18:27

Tough shit op!

It's not a point to discuss ifs a biological fact! You can't feel like you are a women or indeed feel like you are a man!

If you have a penis you are a man and putting on a frock snd calling yourself by a female name with a wig on just makes you a drag queen NOT in any way a woman

Being a woman isn't a state of mind or yours to define or nuance or fabricate or discuss

it's a biological fact dear

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