Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 10

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)

To come?
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to continue on 25th May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing

Yo, planting my backside on the thread. Thanks, ickky!

Bookmarking. Thanks, ickky.

Finally caught up. Started the last thread yesterday afternoon and life kept getting in the way.

Anyway I'm sat with a bowl of support profiteroles and a support cat next to me. That might be a support glass of wine on my other side too 😗

Thanks vipers, it's been amazing so far.

Finally caught up with the last couple of days of evidence! Oh my word, it's all a bit mad, isn't it? I think I'm definitely going to have to try to set some time aside on Wednesday for Renton part 2.

Thanks to @nauticant for the link to the origins of "cutted up pear" several posts back. I've only read a couple of pages of it so far but have been giggling like mad. I will now be picturing the hearing gradually turning into a Haribo Tangfastics ad once the clock strikes 4.

Living the dream @Terfydactyl . . . living the dream 😄

Just curious - has anyone seen any of the TA responses to the case on Twitter?

I'm blocked from most of them and don't know what the responses are.

Sunlight sure is spreading around. My 78 year old mum had heard about the witness with the support dog/ mum/person / lawyer from earlier in the week. She told us that ' it caused a hold up in the case because of having to rearrange everything'. My dsis and DDS were all absolutely astonished,well done Stonewall!

Delurks
Grabs a support Twix

Thank you to everyone for your contributions, knowledge and opinions.

Lurks again.

Also just caught up on threads 8 & 9. Flipping work stopping me following more closely. Not to mention the hounds expecting a walk..

Huge thanks to ickky and all of you for your take on this case and it's cast of characters. No matter what, it's hugely disappointing that intelligent and supposedly liberal legal folk, think women with opinions are irrelevant.

Maybe the reason they were so busy is because they had to cover the work not being given to AB.

Also placemarking.

When this thread is full that's 10,000, TEN THOUSAND posts re this. Amazing!

Ten thousand?!!!!! No wonder I've achieved nothing else for the past 2 weeks!!

🤣🤣🤣🤣

I had hoped to take time off work to properly watch but have had to make do with keeping up to date here and on twitter. I’ve got a bit of a routine going where I catch up with the tweets first at lunch and after work and then head here for all the insights into tone of voice and keep up to date on all the various support creatures and confectionery bars.

Each day and each new witness makes me more amazed how strong and resilient Allison has been bringing this to court and dealing with their self righteous anger together with their total lack of concern or empathy towards her.

Thank you MNers for your comments, humour. and insights and most of all thank you to Allison. I couldn’t donate much but am so glad I did and so glad you met your target. 💐☺️

Oh, here you all are! I couldn't find you.

The tenth thread! I wonder how many women are following this.

Yes that was very funny. I think the tribunal had been having another private conflab and we were waiting quite a while to start. As soon as we were let back in, At Last by Etta James was blasting out of his radio. 😂

Thanks for the new thread @ickky :)

Thanks for the new thread ickky, you’re an excellent viper wrangler!

I've been reflecting on testimonies from last week in general and Friday in particular. I was struck by the indifference of some speakers as to whether they rendered accurate accounts of some events (e.g., DR on FPFW and the MoJ FOI) and the general lack of understanding that women's rights are worthy of respect and dignity.

As ever, Harry Frankfurt's essay, On Bullshit, offers some insights.

It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to be false. For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: he is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose. [pp 55-56]

Both in lying and in telling the truth people are guided by their beliefs concerning the way things are. These guide them as they endeavor to describe the world correctly or to describe it deceitfully. For this reason, telling lies does not tend to unfit a person for telling the truth in the same way that bullshitting tends to. Through excessive indulgence in the latter activity, which involves making assertions without paying attention to anything except what it suits one to say, a person’s normal habit of attending to the way things are may become attenuated or lost. Someone who lies and someone who tells the truth are playing on opposite sides, so to speak, in the same game. Each responds to the facts as he understands them, although the response of one is guided by the authority of the truth, while the respond of the other defies that authority and refuses to meet its demands. The bullshitter ignores these demands altogether. He does not reject the authority of the truth, as the liar does, and oppose himself to it. He pays no attention to it at all. By virtue of this, bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are. [pp 59-61]

www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf

Socially and globally, there is a blindspot when it comes to sex-based rights and the logical consequence of the erasure of women as a sex class plus wider implications for safeguarding.

Genevieve Gluck has some interesting speculations as to why there is a concerted effort to disdain and attack the viewpoint of lesbians and feminists. Gluck argues that previous attempts to normalise various paraphilia and to remove the age of consent by forced teaming these campaigns with gay rights etc. were successfully halted by actions from women, feminists, and particularly lesbians who spoke up about their concerns, especially around safeguarding.

There seems to be a recrudescence of concerted action to normalise these ambitions again. Gluck comments on the strategy of the pre-emptive attack on feminists and lesbian by ostracising them and "slandering them as TERFs from the start": the segment lasts for about 2 mins from this point.

Good grief, watching that video, it would seem that WPATH has introduced the category of 'eunuch ' as a protected gender identity?? Just when you thought this couldn't get any more batshit crazy...! That video is well worth a watch.

I hope you're not tired of thanks @ickky because here are mine.

Got my groceries in this morning, just in case anyone was worrying with some emotional support picnic bars. I may have already had one. I might help myself to an ES virtual twix too.

Another thank you so much to everyone here. I can’t watch live but when I get a chance to catch up through the day it’s wonderful to feel in a small way part of this fight that so many of us funded. I hope Allison and her team have been able to have some downtime this weekend and recharge for next week.

Yes, it is worth a watch because:
—there are some startling overlaps with Adult GI services in the Tavistock.
—there's a good potted history of WPATH's alliances or connections.
—we have reported claims about some surprisingly key figures in the writing of global guidelines. Similarly, there are quite remarkable claims about who was invited to contribute to the revision of DSM IV to DSM V and why Skoptic Syndrome (castration fetish) was removed but we see a wholly new entry to include gender dysphoria for children.

The above said, the implications are dark and it's disturbing to learn that extreme pornography centred on children is legal within the US as long as it is written.

De-lurking to add to the thanks expressed by others, I'm following the thread as closely as time permits (and Maya's case previously) but I don't feel I can add anything myself to the phenomenal combined wit and intelligence displayed here. I too contributed something to Allison's crowdfunder, a first for me, because this case is so vital. I can't imagine what she is going through but the sunlight is precious and I will always be grateful for Allison's courage.

Just caught up - thank you all!