Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 3

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.
You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.

On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, barrister for SW
RW = Robin White assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

I’m doing errands. Did he really just say cracker wasn’t a slur?

Yes, because white people have the power. In his made up definition of a slur.

I don't think he believes TERF isn't commonly used as a term of abuse. I do think he believes it's fine because he's come to the conclusion that the mostly males who are doing the abusing are somehow less powerful than the mostly women who are getting abused.

Is this that KM saying that prior to 2018/19 trans people were free to use gender identity instead of sex in the census and at that time there was an attempt to restrict the census questions so that only sex was permitted?

So now it's impossible for TERF to be a slur due to the power imbalance. TERFs are a powerful majority and trans people are a minority.

I have seen similar arguments being used in respect of rape.

From the context on Twitter it looks like he is talking about Tweets that were written in response to AB.

Yes he was.

Some one take the frikkin' pen off him/them

I don't think he's mentioned AB specifically but that's his general suggestion

Same as their reasoning for the hideous abuse JKR received then.

So sex changes over a person's lifecycle based on different factors? Great when do I get to be male? I really could do with the pay rise and being allowed out after dark

KM basically stating that asking transpeople to use language in the way that the rest of the world uses language is unfair, and they should be able to use language however they want in order to reflect their lived reality. He helpfully muddled birth sex and birth gender.

KM It's a matter of biological reality that sex can change throughout a person's lifetime

Did he say that or did I hear it wrong?

He can’t have it both ways. Either terf is a word we use and he uses it with respect because we use it, or it doesn’t matter if it’s abusive because we are transphobes who deserve the abuse.

Which?

So, is KM saying that the angry tweets were justified as they were in response to AB's tweet, as that was someone who wanted to do harm to transpeople?

Is this that KM saying that prior to 2018/19 trans people were free to use gender identity instead of sex in the census and at that time there was an attempt to restrict the census questions so that only sex was permitted?

I think they decided that they could and possibly ONS guidelines gave this impression. The census is governed by law though and you aren't supposed to lie on it.

Same as their reasoning for the hideous abuse JKR received then.

Yes - some people should be treated worse because of their sex, race, sexuality, beliefs, whatever.

And this isn't sexism, racism or anything because they deserve it. Because of their sex/race/whatever.

Or something like that.

Now he's misquoting Equality law. Sweet.

Is he suggesting BC can't keep up??

Anyone else finding it’s clear that to gain high level at employment at Stonewall the only qualification you need is a Certificate of Gender Woo

Not like that though. Not when it comes to money, and don't think it'll get you out of the unpaid caring labour expectations either.

He's got the Equality Act entirely BACKWARDS

KM agrees that Stonewall's position aligns with his, that denying any trans woman access to women's space is transphobic.

He should be directly asked if he said that the angry tweets were in response to AB, and if he really meant that AB wanted to harm transpeople. If not, who is he/she/them/furry saying wanted to harm transpeople.

I don't think BC, a barrister acting on cases relating to equality law, needs a non lawyer's wot I reckon explanation of said law.

I know someone who got a job at Stonewall. I wonder if he's still there.

I wonder if Stonewall employees watching this are cheering KM on or cringing.

It's a fascinating point, isn't it? Whatever else Kirrin might or might not be doing, he's certainly spelling the ideology out very clearly.

So he has admitted that Stonewall regards anyone who believes in sex rather than gender is a transphobe. So Garden Chambers worked with Stonewall who would regard Allison as a transphobe.

It's shallow but I do like the was BC says Shann Knan