AIBU to think naked males shouldn’t be in the women only section of a spa?

[HermioneWeasley]

A different case from Wi Spa in LA. A naked male got into the hot tub with a woman and her 6 year old daughter.

Can those of you who think this is fine, and trans people are an a oppressed minority please explain to me why this is ok, and how we safeguard women and girls from the predators that will take advantage? Please, someone who endorses this please explain why it seems fine to you, because I just cannot see it.

Couldn't agree with you more. The "Be Kind" and "stunning and brave" sycophants don't give a toss about women and girls.

I gave up on the video when she said she went nude with her daughter to be "culturally with it" because that's what Koreans do.

Assuming the man was not doing anything wrong (other than being a man) I don't see the problem. The woman wants to stop her daughter seeing nude men but is happy for her to see a bunch of random nude women? She's happy for women to see her daughter naked, but not men? Newsflash, women can be sex offenders too, even if they are Korean.

Speaking generally, we are in such a mess because we have a half-hearted approach to gender politics. Discrimination works both ways, if it's wrong to exclude a woman from a job because she's a woman, it's wrong to exclude a man from a sauna.

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never, then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard.

How have we gone from the Staniland Question (which trans allies & fence sitters would never answer) straight to this week's response to male genitalia being on full view in women's & children's spaces, which is: "Don't look, then"?

I'm seeing that response & no other from the aforementioned allies, ever since the spa tape was published online. I find that odd. Is that the only answer an entire movement has?

I think we need a new question, to ask any male-bodied person who might make policy, shape opinion or act unconcerned about this issue:

"Would YOU shower naked next to a naked thirteen-year-old girl who's a stranger to you?"

Newsflash, women can be sex offenders too

Rarely though. Unless you’re inclined to include those self identifying in your figures.

The spa said it was fine because it was a female penis

How the FUCK are you supposed to tell

@ChainJane thank you for answering and I hope you won’t mind me asking some follow up questions.

why couldn’t this person use the men’s section of the spa? Are you in favour of no single sex spaces at all?

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never, then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard.

Never and yes I am quite happy to include female to male transistioners to a female section because you can't change your sex only the appearance and no one passes that well

@Theunamedcat

The spa said it was fine because it was a female penis

How the FUCK are you supposed to tell

This exactly. Gaslighting on a monumental scale. A flashers' charter. How can we safeguard our children from this madness?

@Theunamedcat

The spa said it was fine because it was a female penis

How the FUCK are you supposed to tell

The other thing of course, is that the penis owner could be gender fluid. You might find yourself safe in the company of a female penis, then a few seconds later - without realizing - you find yourself with a male one up close to you.

@Justforphoto

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never, then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard.

Never and yes I am quite happy to include female to male transistioners to a female section because you can't change your sex only the appearance and no one passes that well

I wouldn't say never... one day it might be possible to complete almost unthinkably complex surgery and chromosonal change, AND to send men back in time machines so that they can be brought up from the minute of their birth as girls. In such a world I would be quite happy to say TWAW.

Do you often get your 'news' from randomers on YouTube who thinks lesbian activist = tattoo and coloured hair?

I could just imagine the thread if a trans person spoke of being harassed the only evidence was their word on a YouTube video.

@ChainJane

I gave up on the video when she said she went nude with her daughter to be "culturally with it" because that's what Koreans do.

Assuming the man was not doing anything wrong (other than being a man) I don't see the problem. The woman wants to stop her daughter seeing nude men but is happy for her to see a bunch of random nude women? She's happy for women to see her daughter naked, but not men? Newsflash, women can be sex offenders too, even if they are Korean.

Speaking generally, we are in such a mess because we have a half-hearted approach to gender politics. Discrimination works both ways, if it's wrong to exclude a woman from a job because she's a woman, it's wrong to exclude a man from a sauna.

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never, then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard.

You don't see any difference between women seeing her and her daughter naked and a man? Or her daughter seeing women with the same body parts naked or seeing a man naked? Really?

Personally, I would not go to or take my daughter anywhere that required us to be naked, but I still see a huge difference between exposing her to female bodies than male ones.

Hermione From one description of the spa which I read when the story first broke, it has three sections: women's, men's & mixed-sex. The first two have mandated nudity, the last has mandated clothing provided by the spa.

So a male could use the men's (nude) or mixed (clothed) section, which would seem adequate; but apparently under CA law a male can also use the women's (nude) section if they say they are a TW. I don't know what the law is for other genders, e.g. non-binary.

Sorry if this is inaccurate, it's second-hand info.

Cripes. I couldn't watch the whole thing as I would find it distressing but I got the jist.

Don't advertise female only spaces if they're not female only. Mixed spaces at least allow people to choose if they want to be in a space with biological men, or the appropriate level of dress for their comfort zones. Or could they have gender fluid days for people happy with it? Either way I'm not okay coming face to face with a penis in what I thought was a safe female space.

ChainJane - please can you outline the reasons why we currently segregate by sex in certain situations such as where nudity is involved?

If you're not sure, that's fine and please just say so - but would be good to know what your current understanding is.

@ChainJane

I gave up on the video when she said she went nude with her daughter to be "culturally with it" because that's what Koreans do.

Assuming the man was not doing anything wrong (other than being a man) I don't see the problem. The woman wants to stop her daughter seeing nude men but is happy for her to see a bunch of random nude women? She's happy for women to see her daughter naked, but not men? Newsflash, women can be sex offenders too, even if they are Korean.

Speaking generally, we are in such a mess because we have a half-hearted approach to gender politics. Discrimination works both ways, if it's wrong to exclude a woman from a job because she's a woman, it's wrong to exclude a man from a sauna.

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never, then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard.

Seeing as men men can't 'transition' into being women and vice versa, I guess the answer is never, isn't it? I mean, you can roll a fox in feathers and give it a rubber beak, but it'll never be a chicken, will it?

Has this thread been moved? I thought it had an AIBU poll.

Would really appreciate comprehensive explanation of the rules about where we are and aren't allowed to post about which specific topics - any mods reading?

Yes, it was in AIBU & had a poll.

JediGnot

Ok you've got me there, Once all that can be achieved I'll accept male born transistioners can join us in the female section

@ChainJane

I gave up on the video when she said she went nude with her daughter to be "culturally with it" because that's what Koreans do.

Assuming the man was not doing anything wrong (other than being a man) I don't see the problem. The woman wants to stop her daughter seeing nude men but is happy for her to see a bunch of random nude women? She's happy for women to see her daughter naked, but not men? Newsflash, women can be sex offenders too, even if they are Korean.

Speaking generally, we are in such a mess because we have a half-hearted approach to gender politics. Discrimination works both ways, if it's wrong to exclude a woman from a job because she's a woman, it's wrong to exclude a man from a sauna.

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never, then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard.

Never. But at a push, when their male bits have been chopped off 🤷‍♀️

Transmen are always welcome in the women's section, cause they are women.

96% of mumsnet agree with you op. Depressing that 4% do not. Of course we should expect a women’s section to be penis free.

Where's the poll gone?

YANBU, op. If a naked male enters the women-only section of the spa, he's committing the crime of indecent exposure, but with no amendment to his body, if he says he's a woman, suddenly it's ok? That's supreme gaslighting. To put it another way, if a couple of schoolgirls walking home from school are flashed at by a man, that's bad, but if he says he's a woman while doing it, that's ok? It's not ok, none of this is ok.

@mnhq why has this thread been moved?

You are not allowed to discuss this subject in AIBU.