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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

AIBU to think naked males shouldn’t be in the women only section of a spa?

272 replies

HermioneWeasley · 05/07/2021 13:42

A different case from Wi Spa in LA. A naked male got into the hot tub with a woman and her 6 year old daughter.

Can those of you who think this is fine, and trans people are an a oppressed minority please explain to me why this is ok, and how we safeguard women and girls from the predators that will take advantage? Please, someone who endorses this please explain why it seems fine to you, because I just cannot see it.

OP posts:
LimpLettice · 05/07/2021 16:00

Your use of transmale bodies as some sort of gotcha suggests that is indeed your opinion although yes, you've been very careful not to actually admit you think this mans behaviour was all just fine and dandy. It's a deflection, which is the only thing TRA types ever use transmale movies for. Tellingly.

@Imasoulman If I believe sex is immutable, and that spaces need to be segregated by sex, not an immeasurable gender identity, then yes? Of course for the extremely rare passing person, using sex based facilities may prove difficult, and I am assuming no post op transmen want to be in the ladies section anyway, even if technically they would be safer. It just isn't the same issue. However they identify or surgically alter their bodies, born females don't pose the same risk to women OR men. Am I just utterly missing your point?

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 05/07/2021 16:00

It's about penis owners exposing their cock and balls in front of women and little girls. Not very nice behaviour is it.

Which is why I'm trying to understand it being OK for a trans man's cock and balls to be there.

EndoplasmicReticulum · 05/07/2021 16:00

So we've had
"it probably didn't happen"

then
"but what about this other thing"

now we're onto
"even if it did happen it only happened once"

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 05/07/2021 16:03

While I'm covering the very basics of feminism, like "women can sleep with 999 consenting people if they like without being obliged to have sex with the 1000th man who asks", let's discuss that consent can be withdrawn at any time.

And also, that if a woman agrees to sex act A with a man, and the man attempts sex act B without her consent, that's rape. Consent is specific.

I see a load of women withdrawing consent after someone else changed the spa conditions they'd consented to when they paid their entry fees, don't you?

What kind of mindset tries to guilt-trip non-consenting women by speculating who they would allow to see them naked?

Justforphoto · 05/07/2021 16:03

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

I answered you. Trans men do not have a penis at best they have a poor imitation but it is not a penis

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 05/07/2021 16:03

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

It's about penis owners exposing their cock and balls in front of women and little girls. Not very nice behaviour is it.

Which is why I'm trying to understand it being OK for a trans man's cock and balls to be there.

You think transmen have testes now?!
DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 05/07/2021 16:04

Your use of transmale bodies as some sort of gotcha suggests that is indeed your opinion although yes, you've been very careful not to actually admit you think this mans behaviour was all just fine and dandy. It's a deflection, which is the only thing TRA types ever use transmale movies for. Tellingly.

Its not a deflection at all.

You were the one who said that you were fine with a trans males penis in a womans space, not me.

LimpLettice · 05/07/2021 16:05

Not. A. Penis.

CardinalLolzy · 05/07/2021 16:05

@CardinalLolzy

ChainJane - please can you outline the reasons why we currently segregate by sex in certain situations such as where nudity is involved?

If you're not sure, that's fine and please just say so - but would be good to know what your current understanding is.

Oh what a surprise - the people arguing against Chesterton's fence can't or won't articulate why the fence was put up in the first place.

DifficultPifcult feel free to have a stab at it.
@MichaelMumsnet there's already a thread on this in S&G - please could you publish the rules for what can and can't go in AIBU? I thought anything goes in this section?
It's really hard to keep up and ends up with cluttered boards/ talking at cross-purposes when things are moved without notice.

CardinalLolzy · 05/07/2021 16:07

Which is why I'm trying to understand it being OK for a trans man's cock and balls to be there.

I suspect you are being utterly disingenuous but if you really don't know why a trans man is different from a trans woman then I suggest you read up on it. Tbh it's bordering on transphobic to keep conflating the two as if their gender is irrelevant.

Etorih · 05/07/2021 16:07

Don't you think its weird that a trans man's penis seems to be ok for a child to see because, according to that poster, despite looking like a penis it isn't one?

I can't imagine a transman would want to do that. So the options would be for them to cover up (they are female after all) go somewhere mixed sex, or go to the men's.

Do you have any receipts for where a transman has gone and positioned their newly fashioned cock and balls with their legs spread, at the eye level of a 6 year old girl? I suspect somehow you haven't. Plenty of evidence of transwomen and men doing just that /similar though. That's because male pattern violence / sex offending doesnt reduce when males change their gender identity to female. In fact, in prison, over half of transwomen are sex offenders compared to one in 5 of the rest of the male prison estate. Interesting huh?

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 05/07/2021 16:07

🤣🤣 and you wonder why this site has the reputation it does.

Honestly.

I'll leave you to your daft double standards and get on with my day now.

I'm sure you'll all enjoy saying I buggered off because your questions were too tough, even though mine wasn't answered at all.

So glad this thread was moved so I can hide the whole section and leave you all to your echo chamber.

Enjoy Wine

beastlyslumber · 05/07/2021 16:09

Don't you think its weird that a trans man's penis seems to be ok for a child to see because, according to that poster, despite looking like a penis it isn't one?

I think the emphasis is all wrong here. There's nothing 'wrong' with a child seeing a penis - if she has a dad or brother then presumably she will have seen one. The issue is the man sexually abusing women and children by exposing his genitalia - aka flashing - and by looking at their naked bodies - aka voyeurism.

No penises should be in the female-only space. No matter who owns them or how they relate to them. I think that's clear.

GreatBigBird · 05/07/2021 16:09

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

I don't know which men are impotent, rapists, perverts

Equally you don't know which ones are trans, but they are, apparently, welcome 🤷🏻‍♀️

Also, did you miss the part about men paying to access the sight of live naked children?

No I didn't, and I haven't went into that side of it at all. I'm simply finding it interesting that people think transmens penises are ok in a womans space and want to know how anyone knows which ones belong to trans men, and why they are ok, and cis mens penises aren't.

Surely all penises or no penises are welcome, I don't understand why some are and some aren't and I'm trying to educate myself as to why some are accepted and others not. So far it seems that its about the intention of the penis owner, which seems really odd to me.

If you’re going to be difficult, then of course no penises whatsoever are welcome (I clarified this earlier). Transmen and women should go into the mixed sex area. It would be nice to be able to welcome natal females, but I see that this is going to be too difficult.
tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 05/07/2021 16:09

How many people have said it's ok for a transman to show their penis? One? Maybe two or three? Versus the overwhelming majority who have the view that's not on.

Yet you seem more hung up on this detail than anything else in this discussion Confused

CardinalLolzy · 05/07/2021 16:10

OOOH my bingo card is full!

"It's an echo chamber and I honestly can answer your questions but I don't feel like it just now"

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 05/07/2021 16:11

Double standards, eh? Keep digging. This just sounds more and more like "she slept with him so why not me".

Etorih · 05/07/2021 16:11

Aww, you're leaving? Bye then 😢

LimpLettice · 05/07/2021 16:17

It's a moot point anyway. Going and sitting legs akimbo in a naked jacuzzi full of women and children is a male behaviour. There's hundreds of examples of transwomen doing exactly that. I've yet to hear of one born woman doing it. It's just a non argument. Echo chamber 🙄 no just the real world.

StandUpStraight · 05/07/2021 16:17

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult Thanks for your contributions today. They will have opened a few more eyes to the sort of arguments that are deployed to justify male bodies in spaces reserved for women and girls, as well as the behaviour of those who deploy them. Always helpful.

Helleofabore · 05/07/2021 16:20

I answered. I said no penises and frankly, if a transman's created penis looks enough like a penis to distress others, then that is clearly included in 'no penises'. You are right. I am modifying my statement to 'no penises or body parts that have been created to replicate penises and sufficiently look like penises.'

I also asked you why you thought a transman would want to cause another female distress? I have seen transmen discuss this and state that they understand the distress that this causes and so they would not seek to do so. Do you have something to add to the contrary?

But mostly I joined people asking 'whether it is acceptable for a naked male to expose a 6 year old girl to their genitals and to get into the tub with a 6 year old girl?'

Something you did not ever seem to get around to answering.

Although, you did then say 'I have my own reasons for not wishing to discuss abuse thank you'. So, maybe we can draw out conclusions from this statement.

It is always interesting to see the questions that are not answered by posters who seem only interested in attempting to point out how problematic women discussing conflicts on their rights are. Thanks for the live demonstration.

whatthejiggeries · 05/07/2021 16:21

I actually agree with @DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult - I think a transman who has transitioned should be in the make section and a TW who had medically transitioned should be in the female section. No one with a penis should be allowed in the female section. And also I will say that the type of person who would expose themselves like this is exactly the type of person you don't want in a female section because they clearly have no regard for females

Helleofabore · 05/07/2021 16:24

whatthejiggeries

And what of females who can still tell that a male without a penis is still a male and is something to be worried about? ie. probably most of the females who would see a person walking around regardless of the amount of feminisation surgery they have had.

MindTheBumps · 05/07/2021 16:25

I can genuinely see things in the future being segregated by Penis welcome and Penis free areas. How else do we protect against this kind of thing. I think it would be very few predators willing to undergo full reassignment surgery to gain access to others.

My other half is transgender and passes very well as male despite not having a penis (obviously clothed) because he passes well he would dream of entering a woman only space because he wouldn't like to make anyone feel uncomfortable. It is called having decency and respect for others. Shame so many men don't feel that need.

Imasoulman · 05/07/2021 16:25

@LimpLettice

Your use of transmale bodies as some sort of gotcha suggests that is indeed your opinion although yes, you've been very careful not to actually admit you think this mans behaviour was all just fine and dandy. It's a deflection, which is the only thing TRA types ever use transmale movies for. Tellingly.

@Imasoulman If I believe sex is immutable, and that spaces need to be segregated by sex, not an immeasurable gender identity, then yes? Of course for the extremely rare passing person, using sex based facilities may prove difficult, and I am assuming no post op transmen want to be in the ladies section anyway, even if technically they would be safer. It just isn't the same issue. However they identify or surgically alter their bodies, born females don't pose the same risk to women OR men. Am I just utterly missing your point?

I guess my question was a little off topic.
As I said I stand shoulder to shoulder with women on this issue.

It's the idea that a person's sex can't be changed, so TW are men and TM are female.

The argument here is that intact TW are not welcome which is fair enough, but a TM even with the best surgery available is still a woman !!
So should infact still be using female changing rooms.
I just wonder how that is squared, not so much from a fear of violence I understand the difference there but more from still having his bits and pieces on display.