AIBU to think naked males shouldn’t be in the women only section of a spa?

[HermioneWeasley]

A different case from Wi Spa in LA. A naked male got into the hot tub with a woman and her 6 year old daughter.

Can those of you who think this is fine, and trans people are an a oppressed minority please explain to me why this is ok, and how we safeguard women and girls from the predators that will take advantage? Please, someone who endorses this please explain why it seems fine to you, because I just cannot see it.

@peadarm

“Most would, yes, but these boards are all about discussing the absolute tiny minority of trans people who do less than ideal things, aren't they.”

A minority of transwomen of course (not sure about absolutely tiny’...or ‘less than ideal’) - it’s also a minority of men who do said things...but they are kept separate as an entire category because of that minority.

Regardless of whether a tiny proportion of males* carry out sexual crimes or whether it is simply a tiny proportion that are convicted, what is important is that as many as 1 in 3 females experience a sex crime against them by a male. It is reasonable to safeguard females against attack and against re-traumatising.

*males of any or no gender ID. There is as yet no evidence that gender ID affects crime pattern or rate or that traumatised women are any less affected if the uninvited penis in their space is asserted to be female.

Scared of what it might do to your advertising revenue if the poll was allowed to continue?

Quite possibly. Mumsnet is, after all, a business, rather than a public service. No revenue = no forum. The current division on FWR and the shunting of posts on 'controversial ' topics away from AIBU is not ideal, but at least there IS a space for conversation where GC views are not completely stifled.

Disgraceful to move this thread. It won’t work. Everyone sees it for what it is.

these boards are all about discussing the absolute tiny minority of trans people who do less than ideal things, aren't they.

Actually they're all about discussing women's rights and needs, and protecting them and ensuring that they are not lost and that women aren't excluded or harmed in the accommodating the needs of natal male people. Particularly as policy and law and practice evolves in the context of a powerful political lobby for which increasing questions are being raised, see current court cases. Hence the whole 'women's rights' bit on the bar at the top.

Safeguarding policy is often wholly moved on and changed by the actions or experience of one single person, it's how it works. As the loopholes are found, action has to responsibly be taken to close them to ensure that further people don't suffer as a result. Which obviously is an outcome that nobody wants.

Men are not a tiny minority. The Orwellian trick of gender ideology is to convince people that men are a vulnerable minority, on the very bottom of the heap.

And the focus of discussion is always on the transwomen. What about that 9 year old girl? Her first experience of seeing a penis is not in a mutually consenting way in a relationship at an appropriate age like it should be.

It’s in a spa, as a surprise, with a stranger, an adult male, in a place that’s supposed be penis-free. That can never be undone.

Does it matter that it’s currently a minority? A small number? How many children should have this experience before the apologists think it might not be okay?

Decent , empathetic trans women would not wish to expose themselves in front of a six year old and their mum. They would not choose specifically to go to a place where there is nudity. People who defend this don't seem to consider the damage they do to perfectly reasonable, decent trans folk who understand boundaries and safeguarding concerns. They make their lives so much harder while claiming to speak for them. It's so patronising, infantilising and presumptuous.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

No penises are OK to be on a naked body to be slipping into a tub with a 6 year old girl.

I was asking the person upthread who said a trans man would be welcome.

If a trans man appeared to have a penis, something that when unexpected and uninvited is concerning and threatening to many women, particularly in vulnerable situations where they are alone / undressed, then yes they would also be inappropriate to be in that situation.

YANBU OP, for the 4% who disagreed, some words.

Fantastic, Aja

Whatever your views on TW in all-female spaces may be, is anyone else amazed that actual real live human beings found time in their day to go to the spa in LA and stand outside and 'protest' in favour of trans rights? I know that TRAs have dedicated online activists who hound 'T*RFS' out of online spaces but the fact that actual people showed up in person to support this nonsense is amazing to me. One single individual trans woman is questioned on their right to be in an all-female space and hordes show up to protest and condemn anyone who dares to question it.

Meanwhile the ocean's on fire and the pandemic is still not over... but yes, sure, go out on the streets and fight for the rights of physically intact male-born people to be nude in all-female spaces... that's the one issue we all need to focus on.

Again, I wonder who is fueling this focus in the media and online. It's quite sinister.

When I was a kid I used to go to the swimming pool with my Godmother. There were lots of naked women in the changing room. I didn't feel comfortable because those bodies looked strange to me and spoke to my mum. She was lovely about it, and the thing I always remember was that she said that these women's bodies that I felt uncomfortable around were the bodies that my body would become in time. Now my body looks like theirs, with pubic hair and big bosoms I understand what she meant. She was showing me what my body would become.

these boards are all about discussing the absolute tiny minority of trans people who do less than ideal things, aren't they.

If by "tiny minority ... who do less than ideal things" you mean men who say they are women getting naked in front of non-consenting women, then I would say you are incorrect.

We all know there are men who like to flash in front of women, and we actually spend little time discussing them.

The issue is that they once would have been thrown out by management and likely the police would have been called.

We are discussing the fact that we now live in an Orwellian nightmare in which the men are supported by management and the women are told the flasher is a woman.

Women don't have penises. Is that so hard to understand?

The polls on AIBU are mostly an indication of how the MN readers think. We know the poll on this was reflecting similar percentages to other similar issues. Why is there one topic that we cannot discuss openly ? And see how it’s going. Please move the thread back to where it was originally .....and shed some light on this for those who don’t already know about the “debate” on safety for girls and women , and saying no.

Agree with thecatonthemat

It’s a safeguarding issue and we on Mumsnet should know that this could happen here

That a strange man can look at our children’s and our own naked bodies whilst being naked himself

And he doesn’t get told to bugger off by management or police called

It’s a show of power by some men

Look women you can’t protect your children or yourselves

We the men we can do what we want wherever we want

You can’t stop us

@ChainJane

I gave up on the video when she said she went nude with her daughter to be "culturally with it" because that's what Koreans do.

Assuming the man was not doing anything wrong (other than being a man) I don't see the problem. The woman wants to stop her daughter seeing nude men but is happy for her to see a bunch of random nude women? She's happy for women to see her daughter naked, but not men? Newsflash, women can be sex offenders too, even if they are Korean.

Speaking generally, we are in such a mess because we have a half-hearted approach to gender politics. Discrimination works both ways, if it's wrong to exclude a woman from a job because she's a woman, it's wrong to exclude a man from a sauna.

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never, then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard.

You don’t see the problem ? If a man flashed his penis at your child or you that would be fine ? Almost all sex crimes are committed by male people, it is normal for women in pools and spas to be undressed around other women. It is not normal for naked men to be in there. In answer to your question, I asked my 14 year old daughter at what point a man who identifies as trans belongs in a woman only spa and her answer was “never”.

@ChainJane

I gave up on the video when she said she went nude with her daughter to be "culturally with it" because that's what Koreans do.

Assuming the man was not doing anything wrong (other than being a man) I don't see the problem. The woman wants to stop her daughter seeing nude men but is happy for her to see a bunch of random nude women? She's happy for women to see her daughter naked, but not men? Newsflash, women can be sex offenders too, even if they are Korean.

Speaking generally, we are in such a mess because we have a half-hearted approach to gender politics. Discrimination works both ways, if it's wrong to exclude a woman from a job because she's a woman, it's wrong to exclude a man from a sauna.

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never, then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard.

And did the man have his penis and testes out on show in the women's section. Well no man can claim that is because that is what the women have on show too.

What about, what about, what about apologist for the sexualisation of children. Some may view that as child abuse.

The girl and women are centred here. Comfort, privacy, safety and dignity. Very hard to understand that for people who only centre males.

Its not as if we couldn't see this coming... Self ID becoming the preserve of sex offenders, precisely because it suits their purposes.

I think that chainjanes intentions are that only a person with a penis has any say in whether a young girl or a woman should see a penis in a female only single sex space.

It seems any other kind of person can be deemed as not worthy of being listened to. Regardless of whether that other person is a woman or not, or whether that person is a mother expressing horror at their six year old being exposed of a penis in such a way.

Newsflash, women can be sex offenders too, even if they are Korean.

Is an indication that maybe Chain should look at some statistics and learn a bit about safeguarding before bringing out these gems.

There was outrage when it transpired the police officer charged with killing Sarah Everard exposed his penis in a takeaway days before and the police didn't care.

Yet here we are, where it is more offensive to ask the Staniland question or assert boundaries for females, than it is for a male bodied human to purposely expose their dick to a child.

Remember, according to some, it's also more offensive to film in a reception area (where everyone is clothed) than to expose male genitals to naked women and girls...

I have such a hard time believing that people think this is OK. I wonder when they went from agreeing that flashing is bad, to saying everyone is a prude for not being OK with it.

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never, then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard.

I would settle for post-OP, gladly.

@MNHQ

Of course this should stay in AIBU.

This is a parenting site. And this issue is entirely about child safeguarding.

The laws governing that spa are allowing any rapist, paedophile, sex offender, creep and pervert to pay to strip off, sit amongst children and gaze at their naked bodies.

It's also informing all other like minded individuals that, as a business model, it's entirely legitimate.

This is not something mumsnet should be considering 'debatable'.

For the love of god, if publicising this to as many people as possible affects the site's revenue or their business relationships, then they need to stop calling themselves a parenting site.

If you are viewing the fact that men can pay to get undressed and sit next to naked children as a 'sex v gender debate', something is very wrong.

Please reconsider.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Can you tell if the penis belongs to a trans man or not? I've seen a few and I couldn't tell the difference without looking really really closely, and even then not always.

The double standards are interesting though.

"You may see that penis because I don't believe its a penis, even though it looks like one, but I believe this is a penis so you mustn't look at that one, and sometimes I won't be able to tell so I'll have to question the person to see if I need to be upset of not"

They look nothing like the real thing!

@ChainJane

I gave up on the video when she said she went nude with her daughter to be "culturally with it" because that's what Koreans do.

Assuming the man was not doing anything wrong (other than being a man) I don't see the problem. The woman wants to stop her daughter seeing nude men but is happy for her to see a bunch of random nude women? She's happy for women to see her daughter naked, but not men? Newsflash, women can be sex offenders too, even if they are Korean.

Speaking generally, we are in such a mess because we have a half-hearted approach to gender politics. Discrimination works both ways, if it's wrong to exclude a woman from a job because she's a woman, it's wrong to exclude a man from a sauna.

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never, then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard.

Theres a word for men who like to get their junk out in front of women and children.

💪💪💪 exactly that datun