AIBU to think naked males shouldn’t be in the women only section of a spa?

[HermioneWeasley]

A different case from Wi Spa in LA. A naked male got into the hot tub with a woman and her 6 year old daughter.

Can those of you who think this is fine, and trans people are an a oppressed minority please explain to me why this is ok, and how we safeguard women and girls from the predators that will take advantage? Please, someone who endorses this please explain why it seems fine to you, because I just cannot see it.

@beastlyslumber

YANBU. That is shocking.

What IS unreasonable is this being moved out of AIBU. This is an issue for all mothers, surely?

Agree.

Of course they are welcome, since they are female and spaces are sex segregated because MALES are a threat. As pp have said, it’s unlikely that a transman would want to use a single sex female spaces and would probably prefer mixed sex, as this is less likely to trigger dysphoria.
If a post op transman with a beard and a pseudo penis dod want to use the female space, then yes, there would likely be looks and a challenge. That person would then say “I’m a transman, a biological female” and women, while disconcerted, would be reassured that they would not be raped. The same is not true of a penis haver saying “but I’m a transwomen…”

Exactly

This section:
"Can those of you who think this is fine, and trans people are an a oppressed minority please explain to me why this is ok, and how we safeguard women and girls from the predators that will take advantage? Please, someone who endorses this please explain why it seems fine to you, because I just cannot see it."
seemed to make the thread more suited to the Sex and gender debate area so we moved it over.

So anything to do with safeguarding or sexual violence or misogyny now has to shunted away from Mumsnet's most popular pages because... because what? This is a fucking safeguarding issue and you're colluding in hiding it!

Some penises are OK and others aren't then.

Got it.

What a shame the poll figures can't be seen anymore.

@MichaelMumsnet - why do all the other AIBU threads which might be better suited to their own topic get to stay? A quick glance suggests there should be some moved out to relationships, coronavirus, even feminism:chat yet this immediately gets bumped to the naughty corner. Perhaps there should be a sticky at the top of AIBU to let everyone know which topics are allowed?

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Some penises are OK and others aren't then.

Got it.

No, no penises are ok however since trans men do not have a penis but a facsimile then it is different. Trans men are born and remain female, you can not change sex

Newsflash, women can be sex offenders too

In the UK, 98% of sexual offenders are men, male.

Can you tell if the penis belongs to a trans man or not? I've seen a few and I couldn't tell the difference without looking really really closely, and even then not always.

The double standards are interesting though.

"You may see that penis because I don't believe its a penis, even though it looks like one, but I believe this is a penis so you mustn't look at that one, and sometimes I won't be able to tell so I'll have to question the person to see if I need to be upset of not"

@ShortBacknSides

Newsflash, women can be sex offenders too

In the UK, 98% of sexual offenders are men, male.

And how many of the 2% were born male, but now identify as (and are reported to be) female?

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never, then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard.

Never is correct. Both ways.

seemed to make the thread more suited to the Sex and gender debate area so we moved it over.

It had a poll. People post in AIBU for traffic all the time. The OP didn't want it in Sex and Gender "debate" she wanted it to have the poll.

And the thread will now become more 'sex and gender' due to the target audience having been changed (and people will turn round and say 'see, told you').

People are NAMALTing like mad on this. It's the NAMALT of NAMALTs. I looked at some crime stats from a few years ago and men were responsible for almost 99% of sex crimes, almost 95% of homicides and almost 91% of violent crimes (and that's just the ones who were actually caught and convicted). A quick Google search will show you that male exhibitionism, voyeurism and illegal filming of women is endemic the world over. Another Google search will show you how many men have fetishes and paraphilias that get off on involving non-consenting women and girls. There are billions of stories of men harassing and body-shaming women in public.

And yet we are now forbidden from even questioning if a man has ulterior motives or bad intentions. We are now forced to pretend that any man who wants to stare are non-consenting naked girls is vulnerable and not a predator.

This is where respectful pronouns and the word 'transgender' has got us. It's disappearing male sex crimes in the most Orwellian, chilling way.

Assuming the man was not doing anything wrong (other than being a man)

Concerned more about the feelings of a full-grown man than the discomfort of a six-year old girl ...

I don't see the problem. The woman wants to stop her daughter seeing nude men but is happy for her to see a bunch of random nude women?

These types of spas are very typical in Asia. They are sex segregated, so you bathe and soak naked with individuals of the same sex. It’s family oriented and very common to go to one of these on weekends to relax.

They are NEVER EVER naked with members of the opposite sex. For mixed bathing (again, for families) they always provide swim suits. This spa apparently had a mixed bathing section, so why didn’t the TW go there with their friends?

She's happy for women to see her daughter naked, but not men?

Yes. In our society, men get arrested and jailed for exposing themselves to women. Should apply to a transwoman’s penis too. It’s not ok.

Newsflash, women can be sex offenders too, even if they are Korean

Not with their penis ...

Discrimination works both ways, if it's wrong to exclude a woman from a job because she's a woman, it's wrong to exclude a man from a sauna

They are not excluded. There is a men’s section as well as a mixed sex section.

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never, then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard

Never, because at no point does a man ever become a woman. They use either a mixed sex or a men’s bathing section.

If they get harassed by other men, guess what? That’s not a woman’s problem. Tell men to ‘be kind’ for once.

I don't really see how that's a double standard, @DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult . What post op transmen have is not a penis. It doesn't have the ability to impregnate, is unlikely to be sued to commit rape, and isn't really a threat in either the ladies or gents section. Unlike an actual penis, which has the potential to do both. I worry FOR transmen in male spaces, like any woman.

It's also not just about his penis. Wispa have literally defended a business model which allows men to pay to be naked around unrelated naked children and look at those children.

@ChainJane

I gave up on the video when she said she went nude with her daughter to be "culturally with it" because that's what Koreans do.

Assuming the man was not doing anything wrong (other than being a man) I don't see the problem. The woman wants to stop her daughter seeing nude men but is happy for her to see a bunch of random nude women? She's happy for women to see her daughter naked, but not men? Newsflash, women can be sex offenders too, even if they are Korean.

Speaking generally, we are in such a mess because we have a half-hearted approach to gender politics. Discrimination works both ways, if it's wrong to exclude a woman from a job because she's a woman, it's wrong to exclude a man from a sauna.

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never, then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard.

This, with bells on

I’d be very interested to know the characteristics of who reported the thread to have it moved - as in was it the “monitors”, or registered users or just random emailers who happened to find the thread and were aghast at such a topic being in AIBU? I wonder……

Why are people naked at the spa anyway? Surely you usually keep swimwear on at least.

@LimpLettice

I don't really see how that's a double standard, *@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult* . What post op transmen have is not a penis. It doesn't have the ability to impregnate, is unlikely to be sued to commit rape, and isn't really a threat in either the ladies or gents section. Unlike an actual penis, which has the potential to do both. I worry FOR transmen in male spaces, like any woman.

It's also not just about his penis. Wispa have literally defended a business model which allows men to pay to be naked around unrelated naked children and look at those children.

You ok with an impotent man being there then?

I'm just wondering since some penises are welcome and others aren't.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult No. it's the same silly argument. I don't know which men are impotent, rapists, perverts. So none are welcome. Also, did you miss the part about men paying to access the sight of live naked children?

FloodgatesofHell

This, with bells on

Maybe you could answer this question I posed to ChainJane

So, your problem is this woman said this:

’she said she went nude with her daughter to be "culturally with it" because that's what Koreans do.'

I agree it is clumsy. But then it is a Korean spa used by Korean families. And this women is feeling considerably stressed, you can hear it in her voice.

So, What kind of woman would you take notice of if they complained ?

What kind of woman saying "it is not ok for a male to be naked and get into the hot tub with my naked 6 year old girl" would you listen to ?

@HarebrightCedarmoon

Why are people naked at the spa anyway? Surely you usually keep swimwear on at least.

Because it is a 'naked' spa section?

Cosmetic surgery doesn't turn a man into a woman and it doesn't remove the male socialisation that makes a man significantly more likely to criminally offend or get off on violating female consent.

whats a female penis

i dont care anymore call me ptransphobic i dont want to see a penis in a womens only section whereever i am