AIBU to think naked males shouldn’t be in the women only section of a spa?

[HermioneWeasley]

A different case from Wi Spa in LA. A naked male got into the hot tub with a woman and her 6 year old daughter.

Can those of you who think this is fine, and trans people are an a oppressed minority please explain to me why this is ok, and how we safeguard women and girls from the predators that will take advantage? Please, someone who endorses this please explain why it seems fine to you, because I just cannot see it.

@MichaelMumsnet

I respectfully disagree and would ask you move it back to AIBU as I wanted thoughts from a wider range of posters.

I don’t see you do this with any other subject and it feels like censorship

You ok with an impotent man being there then?

No

I'm just wondering since some penises are welcome and others aren't.

No penises are welcome. Take your penis to where the other penis people go.

whats a female penis

No such thing.

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult
Some penises are OK and others aren't then.

Got it.
No, no penises are ok however since trans men do not have a penis but a facsimile then it is different. Trans men are born and remain female, you can not change sex
/////

Thank you. Why TF is this so hard to understand.

How can anyone justify what this man did to those children? Really? Because talk of lady penis is patronising and dumb beyond all fricking belief especially in this instance.

Do those arguing about which penises are “welcome” really think a male born person should be permitted to enter a FEMALE only designated space and deliberately position their genitalia within arms reaching distance of a 9 year old girl? That makes me feel ill.

Words mean things.

I wish transmen all joy with any surgery they choose to have, but it's not a penis.

You can not turn a foot into a kidney, even if you fold it up and you think you've made it look like a kidney.

@Etorih

You ok with an impotent man being there then?

No

I'm just wondering since some penises are welcome and others aren't.

No penises are welcome. Take your penis to where the other penis people go.

The penis-classification is just a derail. Not relevant to the original question posed.
Sort of "look over there, squirrel!"
except with penises.

@HarebrightCedarmoon

Why are people naked at the spa anyway? Surely you usually keep swimwear on at least.

It’s not a spa in the Western sense, this is a very typical (and affordable) thing to do in South Korea and Japan:

These types of spas are very typical in Asia. They are sex segregated, so you bathe and soak naked with individuals of the same sex. It’s family oriented and very common to go to one of these on weekends to relax

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Can you tell if the penis belongs to a trans man or not? I've seen a few and I couldn't tell the difference without looking really really closely, and even then not always.

The double standards are interesting though.

"You may see that penis because I don't believe its a penis, even though it looks like one, but I believe this is a penis so you mustn't look at that one, and sometimes I won't be able to tell so I'll have to question the person to see if I need to be upset of not"

Any biological male who knowingly exposes himself to kids is a disgusting human being, it matters not one shit what gender you bloody identify as.

Where is your outrage at this?

[quote HermioneWeasley]@MichaelMumsnet

I respectfully disagree and would ask you move it back to AIBU as I wanted thoughts from a wider range of posters.

I don’t see you do this with any other subject and it feels like censorship[/quote]
I agree. OP posted in AIBU so there could be a vote and responses from a range of people. This issue is surely of interest to any mum - and this is mumsnet, no? Why can't it be discussed?

At what point does a man who transitions to a woman be "woman" enough to go into a female-only spa? Pre-op, post-op, never? If never then a female-to-male transitioner would still have to use the
women's section even after they've had surgery to get male sex organs and hormones to be able to grow a beard

Then how would pips bunce do a spa?
On woman days Pippa is allowed in the womens, on male days Philip has to join the men?
As there is literally no difference in bunces body, and presumably never will be because pips is a trans cross dresser (that's on pips Twitter I'm not putting words in) then where does pips and others like pips go?

I don't know which men are impotent, rapists, perverts

Equally you don't know which ones are trans, but they are, apparently, welcome 🤷🏻‍♀️

Also, did you miss the part about men paying to access the sight of live naked children?

No I didn't, and I haven't went into that side of it at all. I'm simply finding it interesting that people think transmens penises are ok in a womans space and want to know how anyone knows which ones belong to trans men, and why they are ok, and cis mens penises aren't.

Surely all penises or no penises are welcome, I don't understand why some are and some aren't and I'm trying to educate myself as to why some are accepted and others not. So far it seems that its about the intention of the penis owner, which seems really odd to me.

You're quite right, Endoplasmic.

The salient issue is what did happen, not some bizarre hypothetical scenario.

@EndoplasmicReticulum

The penis-classification is just a derail. Not relevant to the original question posed. Sort of "look over there, squirrel!" except with penises.

I bet you never imagined you would ever type those words! What a world we live in.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Some penises are OK and others aren't then.

Got it.

No penises are OK to be on a naked body to be slipping into a tub with a 6 year old girl.

Not sure why this is controversial at all.

Whenever “c*s” is used by a poster it is a brilliant, neon flashing light.

No penises are OK to be on a naked body to be slipping into a tub with a 6 year old girl.

I was asking the person upthread who said a trans man would be welcome.

I'm simply finding it interesting that people think transmens penises are ok in a womans space

They don’t have a penis. HTH

Surely all penises or no penises are welcome

No penises are welcome. HTH

I'm trying to educate myself

Lol lol lol

penis owner

Aka bio male, so not welcome.

Is it as brilliant and neon as the light that flashes when people ignore non-contact child sex abuse?

I'm being blinded by one of those right now.

It benefits girls enormously to be exposed to all the different varieties of naked female bodies, especially when they are growing up in cultures where the only female bodies they otherwise see unclothed are stunningly beautiful models, whose images have been photoshopped to conform to whichever unreachable beauty standards are currently being used to sell stuff.

To have access to a woman only space, where all generations are casually naked gives a girl a much more realistic impression of what is normal and healthy. This includes seeing women with mastectomy scars who have survived breast cancer, women with disabilities, and women who are not comfortable being naked in mixed sex spaces.

As any woman who has ever had the benefit of female space will know, the entire atmosphere changes as soon as a male person is allowed to intrude. Especially if they are the kind of male socialised person who expects to be the centre of attention when surrounded by women.

To pretend that allowing males into a space where women expect privacy and dignity makes no difference to how the women experience that space is a load of bollocks.

There was a mixed sex facility where that person and their handmaidens could have gone without risking ruining the spa experience for all the women and girls who had paid to enjoy a women's spa day. One who brings in a couple of female henchpersons and then sits on the edge of the hot tub with his legs wide apart to display his genitals has not entered that space with benign intentions.

I don't think it matters how the person identifies - it is a female-only space so no male bodies should be in there. Most of us would feel safe taking our daughters to a female-only space and being naked around other females, but how many would want to be in a naked space with males? I wouldn't at all. I suppose if you would like this, you could go into the male-only space - but I expect the men wouldn't like it much, and I doubt whether you would feel very safe or comfortable in there. We segregate certain spaces for good reasons!

You do have to wonder about the motivations of someone with an adult male body getting into a hot tub with a six year old girl.

Forty years of experience of men tells me I can’t, certainly not by sight alone, identify the men that wish me harm or will behave badly toward me.

For that reason I don’t want to be naked around any naked men unless I have made a positive choice to be.

Decent men understand this and don’t impose themselves in women’s private spaces.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult Why haven't you? Don't you think it's important? What about mums with body issues, teens who are terribly shy, traumatised women? Should any man be able to pay per view their bodies on the strength of a notional, immeasurable identity?

I'm sorry but I don't agree. Every single image I've seen is obviously not an actual penis, but even if it was a carbon copy, you are suggesting the entire naked body's of most transmen pass. That's just not true. Height, mastectomy scars, hands, hips, it's fairly obvious apart from in vanishingly rare cases. Same the other way. None are welcome. Transmen do not have penis'. All women are welcome in single sex spaces, they are safer, but frankly, no transmen are going to be arrogantly swinging round their genitalia at eye level in the women's section, so this isn't the point you think it is.

Firstly, the man wasn't excluded from the spa. He could have gone into the men-only section or he could have gone into the mixed-sex section, where people were required to be clothed. He chose to go into the women-only section, where the women and girls had a reasonable expectation that they would not be seen naked by a man. There were two other sections of that spa he could have used. Women who didn't want to be exposed to dick or to show their tits to men had one space and now that is gone. Men who don't want to be around other men have a refuge in women's spaces. Women who don't want to be around men have got nowhere to go.

Secondly, men being barred from women-only facilities is not comparable to women being barred from jobs. Sex is a hierarchy and women are on the bottom of it. Men barred us from jobs to keep us down. We request segregated spaces for women (we don't have the power to demand things) because women need physical respite from men. The only people this discriminates against is sexual predators, and I'm absolutely fine with keeping them down. This man is not the Rosa Parks of flashers.