Are you put off booking a holiday in Scotland by the Marion Miller case and the Scottish police carping about stickers?

[ChristinaXYZ]

I know that the chances of being harassed by the police on holiday are minimal but the whole atmosphere: law changes, the SNP attitude to women, the police tweeting about stickers etc - would you really want to holiday in such a pool of chilling effects? It is really changing how I feel about Scotland (in the sense of those currently running it - I'm not blaming the average Scot obviously) and I know if I went there it would be on my mind all the time. Chilling effects do not equal a holiday feeling is what I am saying I guess.

@MargaritaPie

"What they don't do, is slam them on the bar counter while calling a paying customer a slur with horrific violent sexual overtones."

You do know the bar is run by a transwoman?

Let's think of it differently. If the group went to a bar run by Muslims and left leaflets in the toilet saying things like "Christianity is the best religion, Islam is terrorism", don't you think that would piss off the bar staff enough to return them to the customers?

"Oh, and when you say Horse Bar, do you mean Salt Horse, The White Horse or the Laughing Horse?"

The one Ms Miller and chums went to. I don't know I'm not from Scotland.

"What they don't do, is slam them on the bar counter while calling a paying customer a slur with horrific violent sexual overtones."

TERF? I've heard it used by transpeople and their allies in response to abuse, but I haven't heard it being used with "violent sexual overtones".

"I’d be massively put off by the stuff on social media from the bartender"

Yes the bartender/manager certainly doesn't mince her words or hold back. This is a Scottish thing I believe?

Oh bore off with the nonsense about Scottish people and swearing. I'm Scottish, I'm 62. I've never in my life used the language he did and have very rarely heard it used.

My dad never swore. Ever. He was rather polite too.

"So, you've managed to be incredibly rude about .... and Muslims so far"

lol what? Saying "a bar run by Muslims" was a genuine mistake and I immediately corrected it by suggesting a restaurant instead.

"The bar person says on his bio he is a male"

I was under the impression that was sarcasm? While browsing Twitter I happened to stumble upon a photo of the manager with their top off revealing breasts, if they've had implants then I'm sure they would be identifying as a woman. I've seen others on Twitter refer to the manager as she/her too.

"and every media report calls him 'he'"

It's no secret tabloids aren't well known for their accuracy. Sometimes it's intentional sometimes it's unintentional, it's just the nature of the media for you, take everything with a little salt.

I was under the impression that was sarcasm? While browsing Twitter I happened to stumble upon a photo of the manager with their top off revealing breasts, if they've had implants then I'm sure they would be identifying as a woman. I've seen others on Twitter refer to the manager as she/her too.

Its transpohobic to decide other people's gender identity for them. What makes you think it's ok for you to do that?

It’s all relative these days isn’t it?

While browsing Twitter I happened to stumble upon a photo of the manager with their top off revealing breasts, if they've had implants then I'm sure they would be identifying as a woman.

They talk about their penis, too. I didn't see or look for a photo, but here they talk about sending one to someone.

Re the "AGP porn addict male" thing on their profile (which a lot of people including some media outlets have seen and have repeated as "fact") someone on Twitter is explaining this is in fact a joke. Apparently someone else kept using this as a slur against the manager who then quoted it in their Twitter to make it into a joke instead of getting mad over it:

twitter.com/transwolverine/status/1429600076163387402

I came to this thread late and read from the start.

I'd just like to say how much I enjoyed reading the comments about scaremongering, people being hysterical, and scoffing at the idea that people going about having commonplace and innocuous views would find themselves attracting the attention of the authorities.

Those views might have seemed valid in June but are looking naïve in August.

By the way, I was on holiday in Scotland the other weekend and had a fab time. Although when chatting about certain subject felt the need to lean in and speak very quietly so as not to be overhead.

Yes the bartender/manager certainly doesn't mince her words or hold back. This is a Scottish thing I believe?

I’m Scottish and I have categorically never called any customer of any job I’ve ever had a cunt. My mother, also Scottish, has 100% never uttered the word cunt in her life- she thinks “bloody” is unacceptably rude.

Using lazy cultural sterotyping like this is entirely of a piece with the lack of critical thought you’re applying to the whole situation, margarita. I get that you really, really need Marion M to be a bogeyman, but there are less offensively reductive ways to get your point across. If you’ve never been over the village bridge, and have no idea about Scotland or Scots, that’s fine, but let’s be clear that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Glad you enjoyed it, nauticant!

someone on Twitter is explaining this is in fact a joke

Have a look at this NSFW twitter search of their acount where, for years, they've been showing porn-soaked and fetish-driven behaviour:

twitter.com/search?q=(dick%20OR%20bewbs)%20(from%3Amebisdead)&src=typed_query&f=live

It was presented as a joke for the purposes of deflection but their bio is a fair summary of what they say and how they behave.

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

So, Margarita ... you've come on to tell us Scots people are all aggressive and swear a lot, then admit you don't know anything about Scotland or Scots.

You've used the word 'T*' despite knowing that its a slur.

You use the example of Muslim people running a pub, revealing a deep lack of awareness and sensitivity.

And now it's the bar managers 'bewbies' that mean you are presuming an identify of 'woman'. Got it.

If gender is all about genitalia, by that logic, how does said person's frequently cited 'dick' come into it?

One thing that definitely added to our enjoyment of the trip ArabellaScott was that tourist numbers were a fraction of what they normally are this time of the year. That's clearly the fault of this thread.

Beware the power of Mumsnet.

I do wonder if a woman (old fashioned type) had a Twitter feed full of photographs of her breasts, next to a lot of information about her place of work, and that was brought to management’s attention, in conjunction with evidence of her calling her customers cunts, she’d expect to keep her job?

I wouldn’t. I’d expect to be out on my ear so quickly my head would spin.

On the “it’s a joke” thing- It would be a joke if it were incongruous- but you scroll through the Twitter feed and see exactly the behaviour that you would file under the categories described, so…it’s not much of a wizard wheeze, is it?

someone on Twitter is explaining this is in fact a joke

Ah the old it's a joke, just banter innit defence, wondered how long it would be before that was trotted out and frankly if the person doing it told me the Pope was Catholic I wouldn't believe them.

Your utter desperation MargaritaPie to paint Marion Millar and anyone GC as some kind of reprehensible monster is pitiful and pathetic and look at the company you are keeping whilst doing so.

The atmosphere regarding Scottish politics on Twitter is genuinely beginning to cause me alarm.

When it comes down to what actually occurred, there is (so far) no evidence that shows who it was who started the row that resulted in the women being ejected, nor any demonstrating whether one side or the other was most or wholly at fault, or whether there is some blame to be attached on both sides.

But as soon as you read the Twitter comments by Meb it’s clear that the language used about the women is utterly inappropriate and that Meb’s words strongly suggest that this is an aggressive and abusive individual. The unsavoury nature of this person is further demonstrated by a very brief timeline check.

But in the face of no independent evidence whatsoever, there are Scottish politicians rushing to say they support Meb. Either they are so careless that they haven’t checked out who they’re supporting, or worse, they will support anyone who stands against the women who are supporting women’s rights. And people who will support anyone, despite plenty of evidence that they are disagreeable (to put it mildly) are truly in so deep that they are unable to see what’s staring them in the face.

This stuff is so awful that it’s still hard to get my head around, even though it’s happening over and over. I just don’t recognise the society I grew up in any more.

"You've used the word 'T**' despite knowing that its a slur.

You use the example of Muslim people running a pub, revealing a deep lack of awareness and sensitivity."*

This in inaccurate. The only time I have posted the acronym "TERF" was to clarify if that was the term someone else was referring to.

I also said it was a genuine mistake using an example of Muslims running a pub which I corrected in the post immediately after if you want to go back and check.

This thread is getting a bit too toxic for my liking.

I've had my say so I'm done with this thread.

Toxic or a calling out?

The toxicity in this thread comes from the individual being discussed and their behaviour.

If you are claiming that TERF hasn't got violent sexual overtones, then frankly you're a liar (I could have said fucking liar but then I don't want to continue your stereotype that all Scots are nasty, sweary types, right?). There are a distressingly large amount of examples of how violent sexual and death threats are being used to silence women on this website - www.terfisaslur.com.

It's been instructive to see how certain posters are so determined to women having an opinion as a hate crime that they have so far - slandered the entire Scottish nation and talked about the Festival/pub scene in a city they've clearly never set foot in, arguing against people who do actually live and work here and have a clue about what they're talking about.

As for 'which Horse Pub? I don't know, I'm not Scottish'. Maybe, maybe if you don't know and haven't posted a screenshot, then don't use it as evidence to back up your claim?

In the Times now. Sorry no share token.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/activist-charged-with-transphobia-kicked-out-of-pub-by-bartender-3wd9zqzpg

I"m a lesbian which seems to almost be against the law there, and I certainly would not drink where the manager would call me a cunt. So he'll no, I would not visit Scotland

This thread is getting a bit too toxic for my liking.

Toxic thread? Or you just being called out for your toxic comments?

Ah, I've just seen this -

*This thread is getting a bit too toxic for my liking.

I've had my say so I'm done with this thread.*

The ultimate TRA move - I can't actually back up my claims with evidence so I'm going to leave now, having 'had your say'. Surprised you didn't throw a 'nasty transphobes!' in for good measure.

Actually embarrassing.