Are you put off booking a holiday in Scotland by the Marion Miller case and the Scottish police carping about stickers?

[ChristinaXYZ]

I know that the chances of being harassed by the police on holiday are minimal but the whole atmosphere: law changes, the SNP attitude to women, the police tweeting about stickers etc - would you really want to holiday in such a pool of chilling effects? It is really changing how I feel about Scotland (in the sense of those currently running it - I'm not blaming the average Scot obviously) and I know if I went there it would be on my mind all the time. Chilling effects do not equal a holiday feeling is what I am saying I guess.

The manager of the Horse bar has posted on twitter Marion and friends leave political leaflets in the toilets at other pubs too.

I know this isn't illegal per se, but generally it's polite to ask for permission from a private establishment if you want to go there to campaign and leave things behind. Wouldn't you agree?

And as for customers shouting at bar staff, if that indeed happened then it shouldn't be tolerated.

People don't go to work to be shouted at or to pick up political litter left behind by customers in the toilets.

Yes, all the news reports showing Scottish women's rights have been reduced to appease TW puts me off going to Scotland.

@MargaritaPie

The manager of the Horse bar has posted on twitter Marion and friends leave political leaflets in the toilets at other pubs too.

I know this isn't illegal per se, but generally it's polite to ask for permission from a private establishment if you want to go there to campaign and leave things behind. Wouldn't you agree?

And as for customers shouting at bar staff, if that indeed happened then it shouldn't be tolerated.

People don't go to work to be shouted at or to pick up political litter left behind by customers in the toilets.

It's clear you've never worked in a bar in Edinburgh during the Festival. I have. There are leaflets, flyers and stickers everywhere, including political ones. If the bar has a rule against these being on the premises (some do, some don't), the bar staff just stick them in the bin.

What they don't do, is slam them on the bar counter while calling a paying customer a slur with horrific violent sexual overtones.

Oh, and when you say Horse Bar, do you mean Salt Horse, The White Horse or the Laughing Horse?

@MargaritaPie

The manager of the Horse bar has posted on twitter Marion and friends leave political leaflets in the toilets at other pubs too.

I know this isn't illegal per se, but generally it's polite to ask for permission from a private establishment if you want to go there to campaign and leave things behind. Wouldn't you agree?

And as for customers shouting at bar staff, if that indeed happened then it shouldn't be tolerated.

People don't go to work to be shouted at or to pick up political litter left behind by customers in the toilets.

Do you really think five police officer would show up because of some leaflets left in the loos?

And the man still doesn't appear to have stated what the women were meant to be shouting. Indeed, none of his rants include that piece of info at all.

I know this isn't illegal per se, but generally it's polite to ask for permission from a private establishment if you want to go there to campaign and leave things behind. Wouldn't you agree?

I wouldn;t say it's impolite, but IME it's also not standard or expected.

I’ve some experience leafletting in Edinburgh, mostly anti-(hard) Brexit, pre and post 2016 referendum. Personally, I wouldn’t sticker on private property and I’ve never left leaflets in a place with a visible “no leafletting” sign (which is common). I’ve likely been in pubs where others in my group were stickering; not so much with Brexit but it was absolutely endemic on “both sides” during the run-up to the 2014 independence referendum.

I’ve never been confronted about leafletting or seen anyone be confronted about leafletting or stickering, although I’m sure in some cases pub staff did quietly remove both. I can’t really imagine being asked to leave a Scottish pub because of this or even being asked about it unless perhaps a staff member walked in while I was fanning out leaflets in plain view - in which case they would likely just say something like “sorry, please take those with you or per our policy we’ll have to throw them away”.

I also think leaving feminist leaflets or stickers in a women’s lav has a history that some people aren’t aware of or acknowledging - think of the “Ask for Angela” campaign, for example, where for a while the stalls in the women’s lavs were considered a safe place to let women know help was available if they were there against their will or wanting to get away from an aggressive man, be it date or husband or stranger, and give them a discreet way to alert the bar staff and ask for help.

Bottom line, though: even if people in the pub had done something illegal and the police were legitimately called and responded, I’d be massively put off by the stuff on social media from the bartender. It’s unprofessional and wildly inappropriate and misogynistic. I hope Greene King/Belhaven respond publicly and robustly once they’ve had a chance to review the situation; I’m still boycotting Wetherspoons so I don’t want to add another pub chain to my “avoid” list, but I absolutely will if they don’t clearly condemn the misogyny.

I used to think about moving to Scotland for better quality of life. Not now. I even feel lucky that I live in England.

Scotland is a Hotbed of radfems (who are = incels according to India W...)

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Talking of that phone call to the police... twitter.com/MsLMG79/status/1429536221802471431?s=19

Ironic.

It's a theme with certain kinds of people isn't it? 'All cops are bastards' until you want to use them as your personal attack dogs to harass others. These types call women 'Karens' and yet are the ones squealing on the phone to the police in nanoseconds because they saw some women they didn't like enjoying food and drinks.

I would be interested in the phone call to the police being released. Five police turned up probably expecting some major bar brawl only to find women pissed off that they were being asked to leave when no time limit had been specified on their booking.

I didn’t get 5 when my son was beaten up and robbed by 3 men.

@KittenKong

I didn’t get 5 when my son was beaten up and robbed by 3 men.

No wonder when they are off on some daft hoax call about scary women 🙄. I bet those cops are livid though. When I worked in a busy London pub my manager was very loth to call the police unless there was actual violence or a serious threat of it. He said you mustn't ' give them the habit'. Once you are marked as a ' trouble pub' the police tend to park nearby or just rock up at odd times. The customers soon find another bar to relax in. This bartender is totally unprofessional and a liability to his colleagues, his customers and his employer. As well as being an attention seeking missile. Sorry about your son KittenKong.

"What they don't do, is slam them on the bar counter while calling a paying customer a slur with horrific violent sexual overtones."

You do know the bar is run by a transwoman?

Let's think of it differently. If the group went to a bar run by Muslims and left leaflets in the toilet saying things like "Christianity is the best religion, Islam is terrorism", don't you think that would piss off the bar staff enough to return them to the customers?

"Oh, and when you say Horse Bar, do you mean Salt Horse, The White Horse or the Laughing Horse?"

The one Ms Miller and chums went to. I don't know I'm not from Scotland.

"What they don't do, is slam them on the bar counter while calling a paying customer a slur with horrific violent sexual overtones."

TERF? I've heard it used by transpeople and their allies in response to abuse, but I haven't heard it being used with "violent sexual overtones".

"I’d be massively put off by the stuff on social media from the bartender"

Yes the bartender/manager certainly doesn't mince her words or hold back. This is a Scottish thing I believe?

The manager of the Horse bar has posted on twitter Marion and friends leave political leaflets in the toilets at other pubs too

Well, if this is true it puts a whole other slant on matters. I mean, women leaving leaflets in toilets is clearly unacceptable and definitely a police matter. Possibly even cause to call in the army, idk.

"If the group went to a bar run by Muslims"

I just realised that wasn't the best example, but you know what I mean. Replace bar with restaurant.

Margarita, the T* word you've used and capitalised there is a slur, and not allowed on Mumsnet.

It's been recognised by High Court judge as a slur.

'Mr Justice Julian Knowles, High Court Judge said:

“I have become familiar with the term TERF. It is a derogatory term used by those who seek to de-platform those who hold different views”'

speakupforwomen.nz/sufw_press_release/scottish-politician-suspended/

You do know the bar is run by a transwoman?

Run by? I don't think so. The person has been talking about their manager.

TERF? I've heard it used by transpeople and their allies in response to abuse, but I haven't heard it being used with "violent sexual overtones".

Oh, give over!

terfisaslur.com/

Yes the bartender/manager certainly doesn't mince her words or hold back. This is a Scottish thing I believe?

You think all Scottish people act this aggressively and unprofessionally in a professional capacity? Really?

Just read this on Twitter:

"It wasn't too long ago people were putting fliers through Eastern Europeans people's doors telling them to go home."

Is that acceptable? But they're just pieces of paper and those people are just campaigning? Right?

The Maria Millar incident at the weekend is not typical of the day to day experience in Scotland thankfully. Come see for yourself and you’ll find us welcoming and polite as long as you’re the same yourself, and we’re not an anti-English nation, although some of us are anti Westminster rule.
From a quick glance at the Twitter feed of the young man at the centre things it would appear that he is an attention seeker and a thoroughly nasty boy. I would imagine his employers will conduct an investigation into the event itself and the way the bloke bragged about it on social media in the aftermath. They will undoubtedly have to tread with care as he will no doubt claim he is being discriminated against, but I’m also pretty sure that they will have some kind of social media policy and doubt very much that using terms like Terf and c**t in a series of tweets which clearly identifies one of their premises would be in compliance with that policy.

But that aside, our kettle is always on and if you treat us with respect I’m confident you’ll have a wonderful time if you choose to come and visit. But I would recommend avoiding The Doctor’s bar in Edinburgh as long as that guy works there

"The person has been talking about their manager."

Maybe she meant someone at Greene King whom her pub is part of the chain, or something like that.

"You think all Scottish people act this aggressively "

I don't mean "aggressive".

Marion never went anywhere to any horse pub to leave leaflets. She was with her husband on a birthday night out.

The bar person says on his bio he is a male

I am Scottish margarita

We don’t go about calling customers cunts or terfs just because we are Scottish.

A Scottish thing 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

Yes the bartender/manager certainly doesn't mince her words or hold back. This is a Scottish thing I believe?

I won't be rude to you, because I try not to be, but that is a very offensively xenophobic stereotype to apply to Scots. Stop.

Is that acceptable? But they're just pieces of paper and those people are just campaigning? Right?

Well, I've already agreed that distributing leaflets, fliers and other printed material are serious enough crimes to warrant the army coming in to sort things out.

Wow, so @MargaritaPie, being trans And Scottish gives you a whole new level of amazingness. I can imagine the internal enquiry.

Q Did you or did you not call customers cunts on social media where your employer was easily identified

A Aye, I did,

Q you do realise that breaks pretty much every one of our social media guidelines that are in your contract of employment

A Aye. I ken, but since I am frae Scotland and happen to have a trans cloak of untouchability, I believe such things do not apply to amazing individuals such as myself.

@MargaritaPie

"You think all Scottish people act this aggressively "

I don't mean "aggressive".

I do.

Imagine the fringe performers getting the army set on them

They are like leaflet central. Everywhere you go in Edinburgh leaflets posters

Get the army out 🙌🏽🙌🏽