Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

[chilling19]

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

I thought the question was how can you tell a trans woman apart from a man? Gender would seem to play a big part in that.

They're the same sex so people here are waiting for your explanation of how to tell the difference. We already know but your explanation is still missing.

I’m trying to be polite jj both to you and under trying rules here.
They people in question would call themselves TW, I’m sure. Everybody else reads them as men.

You asked for examples, I’ve given them to you and you, like the people I’ve mention, none of them give two hoots about the discomfort their presence inflict on vulnerable/elderly women.

I thought the question was how can you tell a trans woman apart from a man? Gender would seem to play a big part in that.

You seem to think that transwomen in women's toilets is different from mixed sex toilets. This would only be a consistent argument if there was some way to distinguish transwomen from men pretending to be transwomen and other men. But there isn't is there?

@ArabellaScott

Well, given that the facial recognition is based on a single still image of a face - one small part of how we classify or categorise people, and as noted on this thread gait, hip/shoulder ratio, hand size etc also all play a part, before we even get onto voice - yes, jj, we can tell.

And yet the internet is awash with stories of butch looking women, often lesbians, being challenged or worse in women's spaces. So clearly people can't always tell. Unless you think these women are lying.

Well gender is in a constant state of flux

Add that to the formless void, ever changing constellation and other such euphemistic avoidance waffle and you are there.

@OldCrone

I thought the question was how can you tell a trans woman apart from a man? Gender would seem to play a big part in that.

You seem to think that transwomen in women's toilets is different from mixed sex toilets. This would only be a consistent argument if there was some way to distinguish transwomen from men pretending to be transwomen and other men. But there isn't is there?

Is there a way to distinguish women from trans women that could be 100% accurate based on looks alone? No there isn't is there.

And yet you had to go back to a dark cinema in 2015 to haul an example out of the flood.

Awash I tell you, awash.

This thread has become a parody of itself.

See, I used to repeat that too, jj, until I got asked to show evidence that wasn't just me saying 'the internet is full of stuff about lesbians saying they're being beaten up by women in toilets assuming they're men'.

Last I looked, I couldn't find any examples in the UK, that was 2 years ago though and I'm not playing Google detective tonight.

So in summary the only females at risk in female toilets are females.

In other news....

gender is used to maintain patriarchy

You're almost there jj. Just one more small step and you'll realise that transgenderism reinforces gender stereotypes and is therefore part of the problem.

If you have to pretend that you've changed sex in order to present in a gender nonconforming way, you're reinforcing stereotypes, while butch lesbians and other gender nonconforming people who don't try to pretend they've changed sex are breaking them down.

@Escapeplanning

And yet you had to go back to a dark cinema in 2015 to haul an example out of the flood.

Awash I tell you, awash.

This thread has become a parody of itself.

There's a whole article about it here: www.autostraddle.com/butch-please-butch-in-the-bathroom175366/

It's a very well known and much discussed phenomena particularly amongst lesbians. It's one of the reasons the bathroom bill attempts failed. Obviously it doesn't really affect people who are visibly gender conforming so perhaps that's why a lot of GC people seem unaware of it. But it's real and there are plenty of women on social media and elsewhere who object to toilets segregated by birth sex for this exact reason. Like someone posted on here a few days ago, they feel it throws butch lesbians under a bus. That's how a lot of women feel. What do you have to say to those women? That they should just take it for the team? That they are acceptable collateral damage? That they are lying and that it doesn't/never will happen? What?

that article is from 2013 and describes the experiences of butch-identified folk . what's that?

desperate

With the other hand on the phone dialling the emergency terf-ices?

love a pun

When the toilets are segregated by sex...

Then my assumption if i see someone in the bogs who might look a bit ‘butch’ i just assume they are a woman...

Cos i know men aren’t supposed to be there

If the toilets are made multi sex...

Then i may well assume differently

(I was challenged going into the bogs, it was by a man though, who apologised profusely When i turned round)

I discussed upthread that neither me nor my butch partners ever encountered being misgendered in women's toilets on the gay scene - it never came up in changing rooms etc either in the wider world. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened to other women.

I clearly remember going to a friend's funeral and being asked by someone I vaguely knew if that was my boyfriend over there, and responding 'er, no, that's my Kate'.. We weren't bothered, the vaguely known person was mortified.

I still haven't come across any uk based stories of 'or worse' either - I'm not ruling out that it happens though. If it's big news on the current scene, that will be why I don't know about it.

jj based on your, numerous, previous posts on this thread
and, many, others, forgive me if I don't entirely buy that you're here to advocate for Lesbians. I also note that your post contains a US article written some years ago, it doesn't help underscore your point. If there are indeed many Lesbians in the UK arguing for single sex spaces to become mixed sex because of homophobia please could you point us to the evidence?

Every time jj does the butch lesbian thing from now on I'm going to donate a tenner dedicated to jj on Mumsnet to a crowd funder.

I can't go out or away for the next month so I will enjoy spending the cash on these good causes for jj.

Aw, bless you, Bernard and Datun!

I wasn't around in the Kleenex pun days. I think I would have liked them
Did they suffer once 'man size' got rebranded as 'extra large"'?

@HecatesCats

jj based on your, numerous, previous posts on this thread and, many, others, forgive me if I don't entirely buy that you're here to advocate for Lesbians. I also note that your post contains a US article written some years ago, it doesn't help underscore your point. If there are indeed many Lesbians in the UK arguing for single sex spaces to become mixed sex because of homophobia please could you point us to the evidence?

There are plenty of women arguing against toilets based on birth sex on the basis they will be bad for women. Almost all of the high profile trans supportive lesbians on twitter have made that argument. I'm sure you can find them and many of you are well aware who they are. What's interesting about the US article is the comments from many lesbians agreeing that it happened to them and thanking them for the article. I don't see why it isn't relevent to here as well, I'm not persuaded that Americans are somehow not as adept at working out physical sex as those born in the UK.

And no I didn't come here to advocate for lesbians. But I have consistently made the point that I think any attempt to police toilets based on physical sex would be hugely detrimental and not just to trans people. I think it would empower every misogynist and homophobic security guard and anyone else to have a free pass to harass people in toilets because they don't meet the correct standards of femininity or quite possibly masculinity in the case of mens toilets. I cannot think of a more insidious way to socially enforce gender conformity. I think it would be an authoritarian nightmare, which hopefully would end up being scrapped just as quickly as it was when it was attempted in North Carolina.

There are plenty of women arguing against toilets based on birth sex on the basis they will be bad for women.

Where?