Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

Mentioned on R4 news summary just now - I noted they correctly said that toilets were increasingly being converted to mixed sex, not 'gender neutral'.

Interesting exchange between Marsha de Cordova and Kemi Badenoch
www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2020-10-12.102157.h&s=Women+and+Equalities#g102157.q0

@ErrolTheDragon

Mentioned on R4 news summary just now - I noted they correctly said that toilets were increasingly being converted to mixed sex, not 'gender neutral'.

Thanks Errol Wow, the BBC said SEX ... mixed-SEX

who would have thought. No mention on the BBC news homepage though...

toilet discussion with facts here

This is good. At least, at last, discussion of the issue acknowledging that there may be some issues, ffs. Up until recently women haven't been allowed to mention that they may prefer single sex toilets without being told that they are bigoted/transphobic. So this is huge progress, imo.

Brighton university students have drafted a gender-neutral toilet plan

Add allllll the gender neutral toilets you like. Go nuts. Gold plate them.

Just leave a population proportional number female only.

Problem solved, all needs equally met, everyone included. Wanting to see female people stripped of sex based rights and excluding the ones who are unable to comply with mixed sex facilities is not a need. It's not inclusive. It's not kind. And it's not legal either.

seconded Michelle

The other side argues that floor to ceiling mixed sex toilets are fine. They're not fine. In buildings with the floor to ceiling mixed-sex toilets, staff have put stickers over the mixed-sex to turn them back into single-sex. the women AND MEN don't like mixed sex and will avoid them if single sex is available. I've seen this. it's real.

@Imnobody4

Having thought a bit more about this I feel heartened. The fact that the word sex not gender is used. The statement about The Equality Act enabling single sex provision. The statement about taking size of different groups into account.

Is this an indication the Gov will resist amending the Equality Act while being prepared to enforce the single sex provisions? Is this how Liz Truss will outwit the Women's and Equalities committee? I'm starting to think she may be smarter than I've given her credit for. Or maybe I'm clutching at straws.

The Government cannot enforce the single sex exemptions. They are voluntary for a start, and only the courts can decide whether discrimination is proportionate and legitimate. Without changing the Equalities Act and any case law in support of it then businesses and organisations will follow the advice from their lawyers which is that trans people should be allowed to use toilets inline with their gender. The only way to keep trans people out of toilets that match their gender is some kind of bathroom bill. I can't understand why the gender critical movement isn't campaigning for that. I can only assume that people privately concede it would be both unpopular and unworkable but don't want to say so publicly.

There are no toilets matching female people's gender, there are just sex based ones.

I don't understand why you have absolutely no interest in trying to find a solution that would work for everyone, and in insisting that female people must give up on ever being permitted female only facilities by males. Despite female people endlessly explaining the issues for female people with this, and the fact that female facilities primary purpose is to meet the needs of female people.

Do you not get that this is a bit of a misogynistic way to view things?

I'll also add that your point above seems to be its pointless trying to say the law permits female people to have female only things for good reason when needed, because some male people will just refuse to respect this.

Which says rather a lot about those male people really. And about the need for sex based protections for females against such attitudes.

jj I take it you are aware of Ann Sinnott’s case?

Also jj women from certain religious groups need single sex facilities. Religion is a protected characteristic under the equality act. Gender identity is not a protected characteristic. So who do you think it is reasonable to prioritise?

JJ you're male I think?

I assume you've been in situations eg theatre, gigs where in a break there's a massive queue for the women's while the men swan Inn and out and get to get a drink from the bar while the women patiently queue and get no drinks (unless they have a man with them to get one for them)?

Why do you think this is ok?

Please note the article also refers to public sector. So employers in the public sector and things provided by them. Eg the tube. Why do you think it's better to have single sex for men, and women's provision altered to mixed sex? Out of interest. That's how it works at my tube station. Men can go anywhere including choosing male only. Women have no women only any more.

Can you explain why you think the law saying there must be single sex provision for changing and toilets over age 8 in schools in wrong. Can't you remember being a teenager? Why are you keen to have both male and female children and teens out in such an embarrassing situation?

Interested to hear your reasoning.

Just leave a population proportional number female only.

It needs to be that at least 50% of the provision remains female-only. The mixed-sex and men's need to come out of the other half. We can't split the whole provision 3-ways. We know Most women prefer female only. Some women will use mixed-sex if they have to, but we shouldn't force more women to use loos they aren't comfortable using.

@MichelleofzeResistance

No I don't think it's misogynistic, I just think it's the only possible way to manage toilets without hugely draconian rules. The reason the right wants a bathroom bill is to enforce gender stereotypes. I think that is misogynist. Trans people have been using toilets inline with their gender identity for decades, I've yet to see any credible evidence that this has either caused harm or has been opposed by women. None of the women I know give a shit. Survey evidence shows most women don't give a shit. And women's institutions wherever you look, from the Fawcett Society, to women's societies at Universities, to the WEP, to UNWomen, to the Women's Institute to the Women and Equalities Commission even to Vogue and bloody Cosmo all support trans inclusion as do the vast majority of feminists, including many of the most influential names from the second wave. I think it's ridiculous to claim all these women are misogynists.

: The reason the right wants a bathroom bill is to enforce gender stereotypes'

???

Last time I checked I didn't live in the USA?

Weird.

There is no basis in law for segregated spaces on the basis of gender identity.

If you're segregating facilities, there has to be a reason. Usually, that reason is that "someone of one sex would reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex", otherwise it wouldn't be lawful to have segregated spaces as it isn't to address a social 'need'.

Heaven forfend that we should have a loo with "female only" on the door and we simply expect male-sexed people to just accept women's boundaries, huh.

'I've yet to see any credible evidence that this has either caused harm or has been opposed by women'

Erm

Changing loads of women's toilets to mixed sex and leaving the gents alone?

Increasing the queues for women is harmful. Pregnant and older women need to piss more. Long queues/ lack of decent provision stops them doing stuff. It's called the 'urinary leash'. Maybe do some googling.

Do you know what I've never seen?

Any credible evidence that males who identify as transwomen are at risk in male spaces.

JJ you claim that most women and girls in the UK are ok with their facilities being made mixed sex. Including communal changing. In schools.

Evidence please.

FYI most men and boys don't want this either.

UNISEX CHANGING ROOMS PUT WOMEN AT DANGER OF SEXUAL ASSAULT, DATA REVEALS www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Or is the idea that their stuff is still male only so if course they won't complain about having 2x the options they used to have

You don't think males feeling entitled to control and refuse female people the right to have needed female only facilities if this does not suit male people's needs, is not misogynistic? Predicating female people's rights on what male people will grant them is not misogynistic?

There's a forum full of women here pointing out the issues with not having female only spaces to you, in great detail. You can hardly say these issues don't exist for females, only that you're choosing not to listen to or believe them, and prefer to treat only the views of females who agree with you as the truth. Again, this seems to me rather misogynistic.

Isn't inclusion about listening to, recognising and meeting all needs? Unfortunately, this does mean listening to and including the females who cannot cope with mixed sex spaces. Even if inconvenient.

@NiceGerbil

Trans women already use women's toilets so no need to worry about queues increasing, and as they only make up about 0.3% at most of the population then kicking them out is unlikely to reduce queuing tothe point anyone notices, espeically as they'd be replaced by trans men.

Changing loads of women's toilets to mixed sex and leaving the gents alone?

This is not, and has never been, a trans demand. Trans people are quite happy to use toilets inline with their gender as they have always done, although some people support provision of some gender neutral space for non binary people, people with kids, carers etc.