Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7355c886-1aea-11eb-8493-5b46eb56a071?shareToken=4752a364029a4a557a2ba26a99d985d4

All TW are male presenting in the women's toilets. All over the world, every time.

@Escapeplanning

Apologies Facefullofcake This was directed at the sentiment of the thread rather than you personally.

It's entirely your sentiment and definitely not that of the thread. You are confused again.

Yet not one person has addressed the concerns of gender non-conforming women who think toilets enforced by birth sex would lead to them being harassed. At least Kathleen Stock had the guts to say they were regrettable collateral damage.

@Escapeplanning

All TW are male presenting in the women's toilets. All over the world, every time.

So if I were to show you a picture of Paris Lees and a picture of Brian Blessed and asked you which one was a trans women you'd act all confused and declare it's simply impossible to tell would you? Do you not think that is just a touch disingenuous?

Because you make no sense at all. Women who are momentarily confused with men are not a comparator with men trying to look like women in any way shape or form.

So if I were to show you a picture of Paris Lees and a picture of Brian Blessed and asked you which one was a trans women you'd act all confused and declare it's simply impossible to tell would you? Do you not think that is just a touch disingenuous?

What is disengenuous about the factual statement that TW are male in female toilets? They are there as males. They are present there as males. They are present the only way they can be, as male.

“I'm genuinely curious, has anyone on this thread come across a male presenting man in a woman's toilets who claimed to be a trans woman? Has it ever happened anywhere in the world? Is it really something people should be worried about?”

Yes, I work in the town centre and there are several TW who think they can put on a long wig and that gives them the right to enter the women’s toilets. The little old ladies in M&S get very upset and intimidated by them. They complain to the staff but they have been told (incorrectly) that they can’t stop the members of the opposite sex from using the loos.

I feel very sorry for the ladies. There’s one or two feisty ones that make their feelings known but most just leave the loos.

@Escapeplanning

Because you make no sense at all. Women who are momentarily confused with men are not a comparator with men trying to look like women in any way shape or form.

No but they are a group that in a lot of cases oppose toilets segregated by birth sex. And I don't even think you have to be gender nonconforming or ambiguous you feel that what would be likely to end up a femininity test just to access women's spaces - and one no doubt presided over by dickheads like the security guard in the piece I linked to - would be regressive and utitmately harmful to women.

Anyway when we're at the stage where the experience of women like Anne is misused so hideously by posters I really have nothing left to add. There's nothing about women that can't be dragged into the service of men on these boards and it's absolute proof of the utter disregard.

@Quadzilla

“I'm genuinely curious, has anyone on this thread come across a male presenting man in a woman's toilets who claimed to be a trans woman? Has it ever happened anywhere in the world? Is it really something people should be worried about?”

Yes, I work in the town centre and there are several TW who think they can put on a long wig and that gives them the right to enter the women’s toilets. The little old ladies in M&S get very upset and intimidated by them. They complain to the staff but they have been told (incorrectly) that they can’t stop the members of the opposite sex from using the loos.

I feel very sorry for the ladies. There’s one or two feisty ones that make their feelings known but most just leave the loos.

So they are not men presenting in the male gender then. They are trans women, as you have clearly been able to recognise.

@Escapeplanning

Anyway when we're at the stage where the experience of women like Anne is misused so hideously by posters I really have nothing left to add. There's nothing about women that can't be dragged into the service of men on these boards and it's absolute proof of the utter disregard.

You mean the Brighton cafe owner?

What are "gender non-conforming women", jj?

Women who don't either look like 50s housewives on a spree, Barbie, or floozies with big hair, scarlet nails and six-inch stiletoes, I suspect,
PearPickingPorky.

*stilettos

eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2019/10/facial-recognition-tech-struggles-to-identify-transgender-people/

In a surprise to just about nobody, facial recognition software almost always 'misgenders' (correctly sexes) people.

@PearPickingPorky

What are "gender non-conforming women", jj?

Women who do not conform to the socially expected appearance of those born female for the purpose of this argument given it is based on how people look.

No Faceful, I'm referring to Ann Ruyzlo in the video I linked upthread. She's quite happy to tell you she's been mistaken for a man every day of her life. Watch the video and see what a 19 year old protégé did to her when she got voted in as a women's officer in the Labour party.

@ArabellaScott

eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2019/10/facial-recognition-tech-struggles-to-identify-transgender-people/

In a surprise to just about nobody, facial recognition software almost always 'misgenders' (correctly sexes) people.

Precisely, even a computer can't get it right all the time.

"On average, all four systems were most accurate with photos of cisgender women (those born female and identifying as female), getting their gender right 98.3 per cent of the time. They also categorised cisgender men accurately 97.6 per cent of the time."

1.7% of women getting potentially harassed for using the wrong toilet is a lot of women. And I expect many humans would be far worse at this then a computer.

this argument given it is based on how people look.

You are the only one making that argument. We are talking about sex.

@Escapeplanning

No Faceful, I'm referring to Ann Ruyzlo in the video I linked upthread. She's quite happy to tell you she's been mistaken for a man every day of her life. Watch the video and see what a 19 year old protégé did to her when she got voted in as a women's officer in the Labour party.

Sorry, I did see you post a link and her name earlier. I think it might be brain frazzle o'clock here - I'll hop on downstairs' wifi in a minute to watch the video (data saving, innit).

@Escapeplanning

this argument given it is based on how people look.

You are the only one making that argument. We are talking about sex.

I thought the question was how can you tell a trans woman apart from a man? Gender would seem to play a big part in that.

jj
The largest survey of trans people in history found that 0.6% of trans people (139 respondants) had been sexually assaulted in a toilet in the last year. Unfortunately this isn;t broken down between trans women and trans men but it does point out that trans women of colour were the most at risk group. Presumably the vast majority of these assaults took place when trans women used men's toilets.

Why are you assuming this when you keep telling us that male bodied transgender people use the women’s toilets? How do you know where those assaults took place and on whom? It makes quite a difference whether they were born female or male (as at least one poor transman has found out, the man committing the rape didn’t care what the ‘gender identity’ was - they just knew that the person was of the sex they wanted to rape.

Women who do not conform to the socially expected appearance of those born female

Can you describe what sort of appearance is 'socially expected of those born female' in the UK in 2020?

I might not be womaning right.

Well, given that the facial recognition is based on a single still image of a face - one small part of how we classify or categorise people, and as noted on this thread gait, hip/shoulder ratio, hand size etc also all play a part, before we even get onto voice - yes, jj, we can tell.

So Transwomen are people who conform to the socially expected appearance of those born female? Helping in the process to reinforce stereotypes. Gender non conforming women remain in the the sex category female, while casting off stereotypes, not obliging to wear what is 'expected'. They have access to women's spaces on the basis of their sex alone, because they're female. It's really simple.

@OldCrone

Women who do not conform to the socially expected appearance of those born female

Can you describe what sort of appearance is 'socially expected of those born female' in the UK in 2020?

I might not be womaning right.

Well gender is in a constant state of flux, but it's pretty easy to spot the current trends. That is of course if you have an analysis of how gender is used to maintain patriarchy and aren't one of those confused gender conforming people who declares themselves gender free and think gender is all just something invented by trans women in 2015.