Are we the baddies?

[DJLippy]

Are we the baddies?

Are Terf's as bad as everybody seems to say?

Are we on the wrong side of history?

Anyone ever stop to ask themselves this or is it just me?

PeakPants but a lot of non binary people are campaigning for that very thing infact lost the court case. re. passports the other day. would you be happy. to support that and other things that non. binary people campaign for?

Sorry, support what? I am happy to support third spaces. I was being sarcastic re the unisex prisons and sports- I think that is grossly unfair to women whose physical differences will almost always render them inferior to men.

Serena Williams, arguably the greatest female tennis player of all time, would only rank around number 250 if she was a man. That merits some consideration. She would never even get a sniff of Wimbledon if everything was unisex.

Is sex needed on a passport? Especially now they are biometric?

It would be possible to show everyone as X but can you imagine the fuss it would cause?

Floral, there have been others in the past like bespin who would not impose into women's spaces. SOme were frightened that the third space option would "out" them, which then implies that secure unisex might be a better solution. ( under the assumption that violence agaiant trans people will go away as fast as violence against women )

Ratpoly said ‘Not every Nazi was a psychopath, obviously’

No, of course not, eugenics was pretty much accepted science across the western world. What Nazi biomedicine did was introduce racial anthropology into it too. So many Nazi doctors believed genuinely that killing disabled babies and children as well as so-called ‘inferior races’ was for the good of the German nation.

Many other German doctor left in 1933 because they themselves were ousted from the medical service as Communists, Jews, left-wing socialists. Many of those who stayed did not agree with the killing programmes and tried to save who they could. Very few were brave enough to speak out.

So, no, not all Nazis were psychopaths, but the Nazi state was based on an ideology of race and indeed also sex. (Aryan women should have more children; no -Aryan or mentally deficient women should be sterilised or have abortions).

Nowadays, I doubt you would find anyone who would subscribe to Nazi eugenics, we know it was wrong and the atrocities it led to. But it relied on doctors to enact, and many of them believed they were acting for the greater good.

So yes, the Nazis were not all psychopaths, but the ideology came from men, not a vacuum, and it was extremely dangerous.

why show x? Why not just not have sex on the passport at all? I don't need a reminder.

What did I just read

And for many nazi's they just did what they needed to do to keep themselves and their families safe. Which they might see as the lesser of two evils.

UpstartCrow can I aka

No gay and NGC children will be sterilised.
what happens to the genuinely. trans young people or do you not think they exsist at all. don't they get treatment?

And trans people will gain their own spaces.

What happens if I go. somewhere and for cost or space reasons a venue does not have this third option what do I do then?

midgebabe also true

Do I hear the sound of Frankenterfer reaching peak trans again?

MIdgebabe why show sex at all is a very good question now we are getting somewhere why do we sex a lot of our documents that sex as no bearing on

@midgebabe: An enby took the Govt to court over passports having M and F and lost, which is not surprising because "M" means male and "F" means female and these are statements of current or intended legal sex, not gender identity. I feel strongly that the /a05weLQ700bv1.jpg "look at your genitals / birth certificate" argument applies to passports because we are talking about deciding who searches you at the airport and which holding area you get detained in if suspected of being an illegal immigrant or customs defrauder.

No gay and NGC children will be sterilised. what happens to the genuinely. trans young people or do you not think they exsist at all. don't they get treatment?

Well, the hormone blockers and the hormones that many buy from the internet do cause sterility and a host of other things. Most trans young people will de-trans. Watchful waiting is fine. It can never be ethical to allow someone to make permanent modifications to their body at such a young age. Never. We don't even allow assisted dying in this country fgs where we are talking about grown-ass adults.

I think a very small number of the trans kids now will remain trans throughout their lives and some may have made irreparable changes to their bodies that are not capable of rectification.

I think genuinely trans kids should be given support and help. I think the underlying problem is the sexist gender ideology that teaches children that if they like pink, they have a girl-brain. Totally idiotic. Throughout my time at school, not one child claimed to be trans, although many were gender non-conforming. I am facebook friends with many from my school days and surprise surprise, none of them transitioned as adults either (so it wasn't that they were repressed/uninformed at the time because if that was the case, they would have transitioned later). A number of people are gay but nobody who is transgender. In the past few years, there has been an explosion of kids claiming to be trans. I doubt very much they all have gender dysphoria and if they do feel dysphoric, it is due to unhelpful stereotypes that tell them that they need to be pink or blue.

That link went very wrong. images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/a05weLQ_700b_v1.jpg

MIdgebabe why show sex at all is a very good question now we are getting somewhere why do we sex a lot of our documents that sex as no bearing on

I agree with this actually. I also think there is no need for gendered titles like Mr and Ms in this day and age. There are some instances where sex is relevant, but there are many many where it is not.

Why show sex? For ID.

The sex that commits more than 95 per cent of sexual and violent crime wants to remove sex identifiers from documents.

OH MY GOD I'M SO SURPRISED

Peak

Brilliant

Oi oi

@OlennasWimple yes... Yes...

I think about this All. The. Time. I don't particularly enjoy being on this side of the debate and I do wonder whether this is how my parents felt about gay marriage (views which I, as a teenager, found very hard to understand/forgive).

But then I just keep coming back to how incredibly quickly policy, and hence culture/convention, is getting ahead of science and research. No discussion, even, of how the impact of such policy might be measured - indeed, no recognition that measurement might become impossible due to the policies themselves. That is not good for anyone - including the people that the policy is meant to benefit.

And then you add onto that the toxic atmosphere surrounding the whole debate, the way that women are threatened and men are not for having an opinion. I don't think it's healthy. And that's why, although I have changed my thinking on some things through reading comments from the other side of the debate on MN, I still believe my basic position is fundamentally right.

Thanks so much for this thread, it's really reassuring.

For ID which is now done with more sophisticated measurements of the face ? Hence all those new photo rules. ? which means that a boy who looks like a girl will not be discriminated agaiant because of his looks. He will be free to adjust his look to suit his mood.

Crime scene DNA? Police searches and alerts?

Sex is needed to be known if you commit a crime. Or if you are receiving medical treatment. Travelling to France is currently not illegal. You don't need to have any form of id to commit a. Crime.

Don't be dumb.