Are we the baddies?

[DJLippy]

Are we the baddies?

Are Terf's as bad as everybody seems to say?

Are we on the wrong side of history?

Anyone ever stop to ask themselves this or is it just me?

smile15 Wed 11-Jul-18 11:17:13 I personally wouldn't consider you feminists

We are though, despite your or anyone else judgment. We are members of the political movement for the liberation of women. Feminism!
We got here by different roads at different times and for different reasons, but we ended up here because we reject the dominance/submission paradigm.

We resist. We will not submit.

GardenGeek

Thank you for making me smile.

Back to the OP. People who consider if they are ‘the baddies’ or the new flavour of insult ‘on the wrong side of history’ often do so because they either want to reassure themselves they are right or they genuinely fear they may be wrong.

From reading this thread it seems those posters who have thought about this genuinely fear they may be wrong. It seems many fear this because they are accustomed (thanks to upbringing/conditioning) to being told they are wrong.

I am heartily sick of being told I am wrong when I know, due to either experience, understanding, research or whatever, that I am correct.

The baddies are the ones who pretend empathy while they remove women’s rights and start children on a dangerous medical pathway. The baddies are the ones who scold, threaten, intimidate, gaslight and lie.

"And for many nazi's they just did what they needed to do to keep themselves and their families safe. Which they might see as the lesser of two evils."

That's a truly offensive thing to say. Yeah, sorry that nazis killed off children, but they thought it was a good thing to do. Yeuch.

It is not prejudice to not want men to rape women and girls, to attack women and girls, to expose themselves to women and girls or even to just impose themselves onto women and girls.

Women and girls are allowed female spaces.

Women and girls should be allowed to have time away from men, to talk about things that men cannot comprehend and to have privacy within spaces to deal with their own bodies in the way they see fit.

Given that over 80% of the general population is gender critical I would guess that the MN numbers would be much higher.

Just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it true.

Not being pro self-ID is a far cry from what passes for "gender critical" on here.

Stages of grief - Rat appears to currently be in "denial".

I have asked myself this many times, whether my stance really is 'bigoted'. I have had a few wobbles, but then I look at my daughters, and consider the ramifications of self ID, I consider the stuff I have seen on the terfisaslur site, on twitter, in the news, friends I know who have been subjected to voyeurism and worse and think, No, I am fucking right.

Worth reading this statement by AngryBird, founder of Trans Oxford:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1017444210591567872.html

She has previously condemned the 'bulling and intimidation' by TRAs.

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3305051-Have-any-of-you-seen-the-thread-by-AngryBird-on-Twitter

Denying what AAK? Almost every pro-trans poster who's ever been on here has been anti-self-ID, even the (totally, actively non GC) transwomen. These folks definitely don't agree with you, and yet suddenly they're "gender critical" and "on your side"?

Don't think so, do you?

Not to worry Rat, I'm sure that if you cross your fingers and repeat "the general public agrees with me" enough times it will become true (or at least you'll succeed in drowning out that inner voice of doubt that appears to be leading you to lash out at lovely people who've done nothing to deserve it, like Rufus).

I can see why AngryBird isn't happy. I wouldn't want TRAs claiming to speak for me either, and transsexuals who've managed to build decent lives for themselves have a lot to lose if the TRA bollocks provokes a backlash (which if you look at comments on say the Daily Mail or any site mostly frequented by blokes seems to be exactly what's brewing).

Er, that's not why I'm cranky, but thanks for your concern.

If Rufus is reading this, I would message you but I don't think you'd want to hear it. Either way, I don't think I can tell when you're taking the piss out of people. I thought I'd seen you do it to people I cared about on here, and I thought you were doing it to me. I was surprised, and I am - as noted - more touchy than usual. I would be more than happy to think I was wrong.

Sorry for laying into you.

Just so you know guys this threads been screen shotted as yet more proof of evil terfy ways.

Waves at her adoring fans

Y'all need to quit stalking women on the internet. It makes you look like a bunch of creepy weirdo's...

At this point if any of us said "I like ice cream" that would probably be used as proof that we're evil.

ICE CREAM IS CREAM!
ICE CREAM IS CREAM!
ICE CREAM IS CREAM!

Does it count as Big Brother if they identify as Big Sister

there are no baddies and goodies. Its so complicated and should be a discussion but I think people on the extremes of both 'sides' dont want there to be any discussion they just want whatever they say to be taken as fact.
I certainly see some stuff from 'Terfs' which makes me cringe as much as some of the stuff I see from certain trans activists... but most feminists who are anti self ID have some very valid concerns which are not 'transphobic' but about protecting the rights of people with female reproductive systems... who are oppressed because of their biology not because of how they identify. And I know lots of transpeople who are just trying to get on with their lives in peace who think these trans activists who equate the trans womans experience to the biologically female experience totally and want to use the word woman as they see fit, are utterly mad....

Only read first page but I agree with the poster who said TRAs made it about sides.

This should never have become a conflict of different sides. It is blatantly obvious that there is a debate to be had and it should have been able to have taken place in a mutually respectful and reasonable manner.

Unfortunately the 'no debate' rhetoric from TRAs and associated aggressive hostility have not made that possible.

Blue is black #nodebate

Orange is also black.

#howdareyouarguewithmeyoubigot

You are such a BERC Attack (black exclusionary radical colourist)

Only read first page but I agree with the poster who said TRAs made it about sides

cf the calls for 'allies'

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228481-Cis-allies-being-asked-to-provide-protection