Are we the baddies?

[DJLippy]

Are we the baddies?

Are Terf's as bad as everybody seems to say?

Are we on the wrong side of history?

Anyone ever stop to ask themselves this or is it just me?

Garam

I'd be happy with a compromise of 'transwomen are women' and to fight for a third space option - gender neutral intimate spaces and specialist prisons/DV shelters/Rape crisis service/ASL for trans folk.

What is wrong with this?

My conscience is clear too. I'm telling the truth-humans can't change sex-and provided I don't break the law I am allowed to express an opinion. I mean, it's actually a fact anyway!
I think for me I reflect on whether I will get into trouble legally - I know I'm right but theres so many cries of "hate speech" or "transphobia" that for those split seconds when that is alleged, I reflect. And I always ask the accuser to please show me how this is transphobic etc and I have never EVER had a reply.

^Transwomen are transwomen.

Hope that wasn't a Freudian slip!

Can they both be women, but different types of women, increasingly across society and amongst natal women that answer is yes.

Do you think humans can change sex, garam?

Am really clear now after reading tha5 pice that flatblock shared

Will never give an inch cos they always just want more

No compromise

I think it wrong to lie. I used to lie so I would not be abused by men. Now I do not. Lying to children is evil. It teaches them not to trust.
Which brings me to something I wondered about for years until I learned that yes, abusers are trying to teach us never to trust anything anyone says. It is the only thing that puts liars and truth tellers at the same disadvantage.

I've been troubled over the last couple of days by the fact that a lot of the pushback on Twitter against the Get the L out at Pride appears to come from other lesbians. However, 1. I don't know if those accounts are genuine and 2. today I have read two horrifying posts on 4th Wave Now which remind me why I became gender critical in the first place.

4thwavenow.com/2017/01/20/gendercare-london-private-clinic-with-a-winning-business-model/

4thwavenow.com/2018/07/08/does-prepubertal-medical-transition-impact-adult-sexual-function/

That second one, in particular.

Gender therapists are cheerfully discussing on Facebook the fact that they haven't a clue whether young people put on puberty blockers followed by cross hormones will ever be able to have an orgasm (both sexes). Young girls put on this regime will go into the menopause. They will likely lose 10 IQ points. And that's without even considering the loss of fertility and the possibility of healthy body parts being removed and/or refashioned in ways that don't remotely resemble what they'd have had if they'd actually been born into the opposite sex.

But hey, not to worry, because at least they're alive! The misuse of suicide statistics is even prevalent amongst professionals in the field.

I don't understand how any of this is ethical.

So I won't shut up about this. These children are being badly let down. Some of us need to speak up.

Reading that wall, I have just 100% realised I am not wrong about this. Why would a load of left liberal women suddenly change alliance unless something was seriously fucked up? We were on the side of gender fluidity/self expression/minorities. Why would we suddenly depart from that position? It's not like I woke up one day and thought 'hmmmm, actually I really don't like men in skirts, I'm going to make life hard for them".

Yeps yeps yeps
Young girls having their breast cut off when they still teens

Feck feck

I love it when a GC person posts a vulnerable reflective thread like this, and many GC posters come on to talk about their conflicts. And the TRAs rock up to put the boot in, without bothering to ask themselves the question. It's like those people that see a dog bare it's belly for a rub and can't resist kicking it. Lovely people.

Fwiw, my own response is twofold. I've been the 'baddie'. I used to be a fundamentalist. Not westboro Baptist bad, but bad enough to believe that homosexuality was of the devil. Being a bisexual woman, that manifested itself in some quirky, self-destructive ways. But yep, I was wrong, and eventually I examined myself and came to the conclusion I was indeed wrong.
And the second part of my answer is that I think my secret super power in this is that I am not a radical feminist. I'm a common or garden Catholic who does the examination of conscience every night, and believes that if I deliberately lie, I am in danger of going to hell, and it's part and parcel of my faith to hold the tension between knowing what is good, and knowing I'm unlikely to live up to it.

I'm also well versed in understanding that unpopular doesn't always mean wrong.

No, it's not about good and evil or goodies or baddies for me.

It's about facts, and they're really boring ones at that. (I'm autistic and don't like lying, so that probably doesn't help.)

For me these include:

• a woman is the female of the species

• as such a woman is not a feeling, not an outfit, not an object of desire, not something you can become or live as, it's just a body that 52% of people are born into and exist within

• there is no female or male brain

• there is also no such thing as gender

• puberty is a nightmare, especially for autistic children

• we're letting young children make huge decisions and go on a lifetime of drugs or with no studies behind them

• porn and the internet are playing with young people's minds in completely unprecedented ways

• women are still unequal in society and society really doesn't like them deep down; gender stereotypes basically make them all about sex and outfits and makeup

• feminism is a dirty word to many people, often until they have daughters of their own

• we've worked hard to get some equal opportunities (like women's sports, scholarships, jobs) so that we have a chance against men, who have inherent physical and social advantages, but now these can go to anyone who claims a label, even if they don't actively seem to meet it

• on that note, there doesn't seem to be any consistent definition of what counts as a transwoman from the TRA community who have dismissed some people but lauded others

• there seems to have been some massive manipulation or misinterpretation of suicide statistics by some activists. The way that these are preached ignores all guidelines on keeping people safe, especially autistic people

... These are in a bit of a muddled order because it's so warm in my flat that my brain isn't quite working. But please tell me, which of these statements is evil and why?

Why is it wrong to want third spaces and empowerment for transpeople without losing women's rights?

Can they both be women, but different types of women, increasingly across society and amongst natal women that answer is yes.

All these 'different women' - how many of them that have legally changed sex have got pregnant let alone given birth?

If none, then how did we get to saying that men can declare that they are 'different types of women' and that their type of women are the real women, and the other, be-cunty types, are cis-women?

In my opinion, the 'legal change of sex' experiment has failed to change anyone's sex, and the experiment needs to be haulted, before any more kids block their puberty, slice off more parts of their bodies and put themselves into permanent pre-pubescent states.

I know I'm not wrong.
I do pause to question myself, but like others, I'm more and more critical as time goes on.

The thing is, women aren't actually asking for anything they haven't already got/had/need.
Lesbians are homosexual females, attracted to females.
Women's sport is for women. Biological women who have similar physiology to other women (within their sports).
Women's spaces are there for the privacy and protection of women, against the gaze and potential aggression of men, and to take care of female delights such as periods.
Women's online spaces can bring women together who have similar experiences, female infertility, gynae problems, childbirth and related injuries and after-care, breastfeeding, periods, shared trauma (usually at the hands of men), autism (it's widely acknowledged that women and girls present differently to men).
We are not asking anyone to budge up so we can take over their rights.
All we want to do is retain what we have, or what we should have.

On the other hand, a small group of aggressive transwomen threaten to beat us, rape us, doxx us, threaten our jobs, tell us to enjoy our erasure, to suck their girldicks, go to pride marches with barbed wire covered baseball bats, disrupt women's meetings with aggression and even a bomb threat.
Even the trans allies who are less extreme proclaim that TWAW, say that lesbians who won't sleep with transwomen are vagina fetishists and transphobic, say that women are mean, bigoted and transphobic for not rolling over and giving in to every demand made on them. We've seen the transwoman's voice become more prominent, as he speaks over everyone else within the LGBT+. We've seen lesbian groups hijacked by trans lesbians. We've seen language change - chest feeding, people with cervixes, pregnant people. We've seen women hounded out of private groups for questioning whether transwomen really have periods.

Sure some feminists have been extreme, but weirdly, their version of extreme is stating biological, scientific facts - female = XX, male = XY, for calling out a mother for arranging for her child to be castrated, for calling transwomen a bunch of trannies.

Compare the feminist extremes to trans extremes.
Who is wrong here?
Clue: not the radical feminists, I have yet to see a radfem baying for blood, or threatening to sexually assault anyone.

Garam but the point that feminists are trying to make is that natal women have very different experiences from trans women and that they have the right to have spaces just for natal women. That is not denying anything about trans women- it is just acknowledging that their needs are different. However, this position is shouted down as bigotry by trans activists. Nothing short of saying that trans women are women and must have access to all spaces that natal women have access to is acceptable in their eyes.

I mean yeah, I could say trans women are women of a different kind, but what does that really mean in reality. We segregate due to biological sex, not gender identity. It is the power differential between male and female bodies that makes segregation necessary for dignity and privacy, not a sense of identity.

I believe that trans people should be treated with respect and dignity and should have legal protection against discrimination. However, when trans women say they don’t want to share intimate spaces with men because it violates their dignity, they are saying that women don’t have the right to make a similar choice as to who they share spaces with. Why the discrepancy?

You know what I keep thinking about? The Rotherham scandal. How nobody wanted to even think that it was happening. I remember watching a Question Time or a talk show in the area (a while ago) before the scandal really broke. The politicians were all edging away from it ... especially the race thing. And it cut to the audience's faces; they were just like ... incredulous. They all just KNEW. They were like, 'This is bullshit. We know this is happening.' I find it hard to disentangle the whole Brexit debacle from this - it was the beginning of the lack of trust in the establishment, Now I'm hoping everyone here agrees that of course Asian men are NOT more generally likely to rape- or only in the sense that men are more likely to rape etc - but in this community, in this circumstance, something really rotten had started. And nobody would address it. This is what is happening in the TRA movement and everyone's attitude to it. Everyone is running scared. What I do believe is, we need to treasure trans women who get it, who understand. Of course, we need to build bridges. But reading the comments on the Pool this evening about the 'Get The L' protest ... well we have a long way to go. If you're losing heart, google Jayne Senior. Smeared as a racist, she didn't give up.

I don't think anyone is really a good or a bad guy in this. it's more are you in tune with the rest of society the view you hold was the prevelent one 40 years ago but society changed and now your view is not. I am heartened that so many people now think it's now not. exceptable but in. Europe in the 1930s we were also in this place and it swung back the other way I'm. hoping this time it sticks. the question I always ask is what if you win. I wonder if anyone on your side also asks that question.

I suspect that the current rigid gender ideologies are yet another symptom of failing society, along with brexit, trump, attitudes to vulnerable people.

If those leading the trans stuff weren't so aggressive and entitled in the way they go about their campaigns perhaps the feminist backlash wouldn't be happening

It's not ok to blame women for the trouble the whole world has with men. Own the problem, listen to what knowledgable, intelligent women are saying, and don't dismiss them because it doesn't fit your view of what women should be, how polite and accepting we must be. Really listen to what we're saying.

Bespin this is not an old-fashioned view. In the past, people were against trans people due to bigotry, thinking they were perverts and weirdos. There are a few people who give GC a bad name but it is not a bigoted viewpoint and nor is it old-fashioned. In fact, it is a response to some of the issues that have arisen in recent years. You will note that hardly any of the feminists protesting now did so when the GRA was enacted. If they were bigots, they would have done so and they would presumably also have opposed things like same-sex marriage. It's very easy and lazy to call them bigots or old-fashioned when actually there are a good deal of younger feminists also on board with this and it is not coming from a place of hate at all, simply a wish to protect female rights.

Here you go- from a young feminist. Sticking up for someone who is being subjected to the most hideous abuse and calls for her to be fired. Simply because she argues that there may be a meaningful difference between people born with a vagina and people born with a penis who claim they are the same as those born with a vagina.

twitter.com/tan_1th/status/1016012871149514755

Tbh 40 years ago boys were mad into dresses and make up. Nobody said they were forks we've gone so far backwards it's ridiculous. Like going back to the forties. Further.

Bespin what if we win? What if women and girls retain their right to single sex provision and personal boundaries? What if children who are unhappy with their bodies aren't lied to that it's possible to change sex? What if we have a society where it doesn't bloody matter how you 'present' or 'identify', you have basic rights to liberty and safety?

I ask myself those things quite often, because I'm a hopeful sort and those are my goals. Are they not laudable goals?

Forks lol

Girls

Whenever people talk about 40 years ago, I think of things like this
mashable.com/2015/11/05/david-bowie-dress/

40 (actually nearly 50) years ago, David Bowie could wear a dress, but he was still a man. Now someone has to "change sex" to be gender non-conforming. Do you think this is progress, Bespin?

In the 70s and 80s everyone was playing with gender, but we all knew what sex we were.

I ask myself this constantly and actively challenge the GC POV when reading and thinking this through. Because...

...it's hard being on the 'bigot' side for the first time

...this issue is deeply concerning. If I could dismiss it, my life would be easier

... intellectual integrity demands that we put our pet theories to the test as a matter of course

Nothing yet has persuaded me to abandon safeguarding, consent, precise language and the key relevance of biology for women.

Peak Pants I think. you misunderstood my point it was not about gc people but society as a whole and the fact that it as been more open in certain places at different times not the pwople campaigning for that change.

on the gc feminist that were protecting around the gra yes quite a few of the prominent ones now also were doing it then too. as I have said I'm. not. New to this and the same names do keep popping up over the years I really don't know why people do. what they do if they are bigoted or not I'm. not. saying that at all. but have you ever. stopped to think. what if we can not convince people what happens then. I often think what if you do