Are we the baddies?

[DJLippy]

Are we the baddies?

Are Terf's as bad as everybody seems to say?

Are we on the wrong side of history?

Anyone ever stop to ask themselves this or is it just me?

I think about it, especially this last week or so with the comments from justine and the horrible reporting of get the L out.
I've questioned myself, like others, I've spent my life fighting injustice, I consider myself on the left, a liberal, it's not comfortable to be on opposite sides now to people I've fought beside in the past. People who's morals and passions are the same as mine in so many ways. It is uncomfortable.
That article floorplan shared, the testimonies from detransitioners is just heartbreaking.
Scar tissue where healthy breasts used to be, vaginal atrophy, drip incontinence.
One woman describes her transition as a form of self harm. Which is interesting and relevant to another thread here which I can't link to. (Was about links between Trans, autism, self harm and eating disorders I think)
The role of social media and the validation and praise these kids are receiving.
I was an anorexic, nobody said I was brave or beautiful.
Mutilating children can never be right.
Getting rid of women's privacy safety and dignity can never be right.

I continually ask myself this. Often daily.

But then I see dishonesty, cult-like behaviour, gaslighting, cognitive dissonance, raging narcissism, DARVO, child abuse, and all the rest, and think, "on balance, probably not".

When trans rights first came up I just nodded along. I was always an LGB ally and I assumed it was the same.

Then I saw things that disturbed me and, being me, followed up until I went right down the rabbit hole.

And what I saw got worse and worse. I could hardly believe my eyes. This was nothing like gay rights. It was an onslaught on women's rights.

The issue of transing children is a medical ethics nightmare. There's nothing good to say about it.

Transgender ideology poses the biggest threat to women's rights for maybe a century. TRAs = MRAs. So, no. Not since I first went down that rabbit hole have I doubted my position.

In the process I have rekindled my feminism and joined up with other women in a way that sets me abuzz.

Like misogyny generally, once you've seen ii you can't unsee it.

Prawn

^^This.

I've lost friends over this. Like a PP I am concerned about their lack of curiosity. A long time holder of clear views and actions, wrt women's rights/gay rights/bame rights, why would WHKK suddenly be saying what she is? Has any one of them asked me? No.
I do wonder why. And I wonder if the not asking is to do with an unwillingness to look a little closer at what is happening and they just don't have the stomach for it. It's too uncomfortable for them.
Well, I have news for them, especially those with grandchildren (cos I'm old). It's going to get a lot more uncomfortable unless they wake the fuck up.

Bespin at the end of the day, trans ideology does not stand up to common sense. You can argue all day long that you are a woman in your head, but your head is not the important part for issues of sex segregation, it's your body. I firmly believe in third spaces and a major flaw in the whole debate is that people assume that there can only be two spaces. Why?

Because trans ideology does not withstand common sense scrutiny, it requires absolutely blind adherence, which is why the debate is consistently shut down. Trans people are refusing to debate by saying that their right to exist should not be up for debate. But it's not their right to exist- it is their proclaimed right to access all female-only spaces seemingly for the sole purpose of validation. If it wasn't solely about validation, trans people would be campaigning for their own spaces, their own services etc. They are seeing their own interests in the equation but they are simply disregarding women's interests as bigoted and irrelevant. I am very curious as to why that is. What makes it so easy to dismiss concerns raised by people who certainly don't have a history of being bigoted?

I have agonised over this question! How come I could come to the opposite conclusion to all of my 'comrades'? With whom I agreed on every other issue? But every time I have replayed things in my head and researched the other side I always come back to the same conclusion. We are right! Things just don't add up on the TRA 'side' I have this confirmed to me every time I try to discuss the actual issues in detail I either get shut down as t**f or met with silence. They cannot defend their position, it is illogical and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. More people are waking up to this truth every day.

I think there are a few baddies but most GC women are genuinely concerned about women and children. As most don’t know trans people it is a scary unknown, or they think TRAs on Twitter represent all trans people.

In my opinion GC feminism is well intentioned but misguided. There is a tendency for GC feminists to get carried away and start shouting accusatory words like ‘child abusers’ and ‘rape culture’ which makes them look like baddies.

PeakPants

a major flaw in the whole debate is that people assume that there can only be two spaces. Why?

I think if we heard more about how we change society to. include this then then it might be a discussion mostly. when asked people just say its your problem sort. it out we are 1% of the population we don't have the power too effect that change.

as to why we need these spaces, personally because there are only. 2 choices and to function in. society demands I use one or the other for quite a lot of things then I am more closely aligned to woman than man so society as decided that I require those protections to be a functioning member of society

As most don’t know trans people it is a scary unknown, or they think TRAs on Twitter represent all trans people.

Have you ever counted how many times you have told this lie?

we are 1% of the population we don't have the power too effect that change

Well you have the power to effect pretty fundamental changes in the law, so yeah, if you wanted third spaces, you could campaign for them and you would probably get them. If you had no power to campaign for change, none of this debate would be taking place.

You are transparent Daim. Now you're trying to portray us as scared through ignorance. 'We just need a lil eddymacation in all things trans' Naff off.

Bespin, with respect, you're the only trans-identifying person I've met on here that has given any serious support for the idea of a third space.
All the other vocal TRAs demand validation for transwomen are women and must therefore be allowed in the sexed space of their choice.
So yes, I'd say you are way south of 1% of the population if most other Transactivists aren't willing to go along with you and fight for third spaces.

@garam There is a transwoman Labour women's officer who thinks that uterus transplants will become possible (ignoring completely the huge differences between the male and female pelvis that will prevent a transwoman from gestating), transwomen who want to simulate menstruation by inserting fermentable foodstuffs into their bodies, and transwomen who appropriate the word "period" to describe induced symptoms caused by varying their hormonal therapy. Anyone who calls out this appropriation of female bodily functions is a "terf". So please don't say that everyone acknowledges that transwomen and females are biologically distinct, because a vocal subset of transwomen don't want to acknowledge that.

As most don’t know trans people it is a scary unknown, or they think TRAs on Twitter represent all trans people.

Oh whatever. I know trans people. It's not a scary unknown. It's the physical reality of male bodies in female spaces and in female sports. If there is no reason to segregate natal women and trans women, there is no need to segregate full stop. Let's just have a free for all and have unisex prisons and sports. Let's see who comes off the worse there.

I was pretty 'live and let live' until I heard about 'trans children'.

Children being given powerful drugs which will leave them sterile and with no sexual function. We are not the baddies for objecting to that.

PeakPants but a lot of non binary people are campaigning for that very thing infact lost the court case. re. passports the other day. would you be happy. to support that and other things that non. binary people campaign for?

bd67th I am always interested in why some people don't want to do that. I have usually found it is younger trans people or people esrlyer in. transition when you are usually needing a lot. more validation from People to balance out the fact a lot of people are saying no you are not that. I think I was more inclined to that when I was younger and less confident in who I am so I do wonder if this is an experiance thing.

Bespin..what was the passport thing? ( these lists have been a little mental lately)

As most don’t know trans people it is a scary unknown, or they think TRAs on Twitter represent all trans people.
In my opinion GC feminism is well intentioned but misguided.

Patronising, much? I know quite a few people under the 'trans' umbrella. On a personal level I like them all. On an idealogical level I do not, as none of them are the "old skool transsexuals with body dysmorphia" types, whose position I understand.

I don't think any of these particular trans people wish harm to women on a conscious level. I do think however that they are utterly unaware of their ingrained male privilege, and indeed the inherent misogyny in some of their positions when insisting on their identity being the biggest issue and absolutely #nodebate. Even whilst facing trials and tribulations I can never imagine, and for which I feel for them on a human level, they cannot offer the same empathy back to 'cis' women unless we are whole-hearted 'allies'.

I question myself A LOT on this issue, to answer the thread title. I whole-heartedly wish the whole thing would go away, in fact, and take up none of my headspace. I suspect many many trans people would say the same.

But fundamentally, when it comes right down to it, I believe that women are oppressed by their biology, and by the patriarchal society that compounds and exploits this with 'gender' bullshit. So as trans women can never escape their biology, they cannot ever be part of the class of people whose biology defines them. Ditto for trans men.

I am all for expression of personality. But it cannot just trample over facts for convenience and the sake of keeping the peace.

I have exactly the experience prawn describes.

I got through it by understanding that I am the same ally to the marginalised that I always was. I know who I'm standing up for (women).

Isn't it interesting which posters are prepared to examine their consciences, and which just want to talk about other people's?

There's a pattern, if I can just put my finger on it...

Somebody wants to have a passport without their sex on. They say they are non binary and need a gender neutral passport.

Luckily their passport is already gender neutral, containing a note only of their sex, and not their gender.

No, we are not the baddies. I reflect on this daily, particularly seeing the genuine anguish and fragility of young, confused people caught up in the Tumblr whirl. When young lesbians I know are being gaslighted, I consider their rights and act accordingly.

MIdgebabe as Pratchet discribed without bit where it is already gender neutral as for a group of people who think the third option is a good thing you seem to be quite dismissive of it in reality. I'd love you to get behind that though

What if we win?
Well, then women will get to retain the rights we fought for.
No gay and NGC children will be sterilised.
And trans people will gain their own spaces.

Sounds absolutely terrible, doesn't it

Is sex needed on a passport? Especially now they are biometric?