Meet the man standing to be a Labour party women’s officer

[busyboysmum]

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/meet-the-man-standing-to-be-a-labour-party-womens-officer/

This is great - good on David Lewis. Shows the Labour Party's policy up for the nonsense it is.

If any man can say he's a woman and self identify as such.... I can't believe I am even typing these words.

It's just not possible to change your biological sex. Surely common sense is going to win through this madness?

[crispbuttyfan]

Although as for wings over scotland, it never surprises me the depths people will go to, to show support to anyone who professes an anti trans view.
Even men who actually assault women....


Nice friends you have on that side...

www.heraldscotland.com/news/15486841.Wings_Over_Scotland_author_arrested_after_woman_alleges_harassment/

[ToeToToe]

It's a very simple question - asking whether people are in favour of self id, and whether all current sex segregated spaces should become gender neutral.

The question, and the responses are quite clear to me.

[ToeToToe]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4914582/Radical-transgender-group-says-FINE-punch-women.html

Real nice friends on your side, crispbuttyfan.

[TerfsUp]

My apologies, @crispbutty.

[crispbuttyfan]

Toe to Toe, ok I totally disavow what they are saying they don't speak for me, but as the community is full of individuals what can I do?

However I noticed you didn't seem to take offence at stewart campbells campaign against a woman, preferring more whataboutery.

I wouldnt expect anything less.

[Datun]

It's a great article and a great initiative. Especially the part about identifying as a woman part time. That really shows up the agenda.

[crispbuttyfan]

Terfsup
I don't think you need to apologise. Or did I miss something? :-)

[LangCleg]

Show me some polling carried out by a reputable polling company that a) does not frame the question by dissembling about distinct populations under the trans umbrella, and b) shows a clear majority of women in support of self-ID.

I'll be needing the actual data sets.

[Wanderabout]

Women are interested in the impact on their rights and identity that's why it's important to them. The transwomen who listen and respond rather than denying reality and different perspectives are doing far more for the cause of trans rights than anyone shouting down any questions or discussion.

[R0wantrees]

Could the question be any more ridiculously one-sided and weighted in propaganda?

(with apologies for reposting this but your comment reminded me of it Crisp)
The following is from a very basic guide but, I think interesting:

Propaganda Techniques

[people.howstuffworks.com/propaganda1.htm]

"A commonly used technique is name-calling, which takes its cue from playground behavior. Often, this technique is utilized to divert attention when someone is trying to avoid answering a question or providing hard facts.

The bandwagon technique encourages the viewer or listener to join the crowd by aligning with the most popular, successful side of an issue

Glittering generalities are very common in political propaganda. Glittering generalities combine words that have positive connotations with a concept that is particularly beloved.

Card stacking is the presentation of only the details, statistics and other information that impacts public opinion positively. In other words, the bad stuff is left out entirely.

The plain folks technique is designed to get ordinary citizens to identify with a political candidate or other figure that they otherwise may have nothing in common with.

Propaganda based on fear is designed to scare people into choosing sides.

The transfer technique is more subliminal (operating on a subconscious rather than conscious level) than the other techniques we've discussed. Using this method, a group or person attempts to align themselves with a beloved symbol in an effort to transfer the status of the symbol to the cause they represent.

Many other propaganda methods exist, but they subsist on the same basic principles as the ones listed above: Manipulate the message to portray an issue or person in the most favorable light possible, and when necessary, make the opposing side look shabby in comparison.

Many people believe that propaganda does more harm than its proponents would admit to. Some go so far as to claim that propaganda is a bedfellow of censorship because they both serve as tools for repression, confusion and suppression of information"

Of course it is important to acknowledge that the use of these makes no comment on the worthiness of the cause. They have been employed to great effect by many admirable people.

[crispbuttyfan]

LangCleg

hang on, Ive played this before...... you go first showing me what you purport to be the truth, including all data sets for my amusement, then I promise I will do the same back asap.

I'd go first, but Ive not long had my tea, and I think I feel a snooze coming on.. good luck, and no rush!

[ToeToToe]

ok I totally disavow what they are saying they don't speak for me, but as the community is full of individuals what can I do?

Right back at you.

You don't get to discredit that survey though, because of the actions of that man.

Anymore than I get to discredit, say, the Jo Cox program because of the actions of Brendan Cox.

[LangCleg]

I've given you polling carried out by a reputable company together with the full dataset, Crisp. You complained that the question was framed.

So I'm asking you to evidence your assertion - that a majority of women support the transactivist agenda - but making the same stipulation: no disingenuous framing of the question.

You made the assertion. I evidenced my disagreement with that assertion. Now I'm asking you to evidence your assertion.

[crispbuttyfan]

Rowantrees

Propaganda based on fear is designed to scare people into choosing sides.

Trans people have usually have gender dysphoria, or a very clear gender identity, and are generally campaigning for rights or political mechanisms to make things easier.

Those who resent trans people, and accommodations in law, base their argument and try to gain support by the blatant use of fear tactics, which is why trans women are always painted as a risk, for instance in toilets and changing rooms, despite their being no evidence of any harm.

This is clear propaganda.

[crispbuttyfan]

Langcleg, I certainly missed this, can you show me where you presented this?

[SarahAr]

My hope is that the Labour Party will expel David Lewis. He is clearly not transgender and he clearly does not sincerely identify as a woman by his own admission.

Labour's self id is about allowing transgender people who are unable to obtain a GRC or who have not obtained a GRC to be treated as women. It is about not judging if someone is trans enough. There is no reason why it needs to include people who abuse it, whether for political advantage or in this case protest.

[ToeToToe]

We're challenging self ID.

We're challenging the right of any person to self define their own gender - and enter female spaces. We're arguing for the safeguarding of women and girls, and not to have sex segregation replaced by gender neutral spaces.

David Lewis's stand on this makes the risks very, very clear.

[UpstartCrow]

What is the benchmark for 'trans enough'?
Its only going to be possible for you to give your opinion, since 'gender fluid' is already considered 'trans enough'.

[crispbuttyfan]

The question is about removing single sex changing rooms and toilets.... Nobody has said this whatsoever, just because some people refuse to accept trans women are women, and trans men are men, does not mean all toilets and changing rooms will no longer be male or female, its nonsensical.

Claiming it will be a hate-crime for simply disagreeing about whether someone who is trans is the sex that matches their gender, would NEVER be construed as a hate crime.

You would have to be found to be aggressively mis-gendering in an attempt to distress the individual.

The question is entirely ridiculous.

[R0wantrees]

crispbuttyfan
Propaganda is a tool to persuade, the techniques used are common.

[LangCleg]

Crisp - I know you enjoy holding up discussions in patriarchal demands for endless labour from women, so I won't be repeating myself again. I've given you an evidenced data set. Wings Over Scotland commissioned You Gov to carry out polling on their behalf. That polling directly contradicted your assertion about women's support for the transactivist agenda. I'm asking you to provide similar data sets from equally reputable polling companies to evidence your assertion. And, since you complained about question framing on mine, I'm equally laying down conditions for question framing in yours. No conflating dysphorics with cross dressers.

I'll wait.

[crispbuttyfan]

Toe to toe.

Your going on about the equality act, and linking it to entirely different legislation, I know this just has to be sea-lioning because surely at this point no-one still believes GRA has anything to do with sex-segregated spaces. It is merely a transparent push to weaponise misinformation and drum up support to undo the equality act, even though it would be nigh on impossible because after 8 years there has been no harm

[AsAProfessionalFekko]

How can you judge who is 'clearly' and who isn't?

I forget the name but there's a male who works in the City (pretty high up at Credit Suisse ) who says he is female for part of the week and male the rest. What is this person then? They don't really have a fixed idea so how can anyone else? Didn't they even win a women in business award?

So I guess they took a part time payout as well since women are paid less in the City.

It's all very messy and won't get resolved with all this 'no debate' nonsense. It comes down to men having the loudest voice and more muscle to bully women into agreeing with their pov.

Do trans men threaten males who say 'you are not a man'? Not really, and that is a curious thing.

[crispbuttyfan]

Langcleg A

Although it seems you would like another woman to run round after you playing your silly games... well I did look deeper into it...
Ive read the entire wings over scotland anti-trans propaganda blog that includes the poll you are referencing, at no point does it suggest it has been carried out by any legitimate polling body whatsoever.

Feel free to link me 3rd party evidence preferably yougov as you stated.

The point still stands, the question was not legitimate, it was pretty pathetic non-sequitur martial arts if you ask me, entirely framed to help get to a pre-concieved outcome and flies in the face of just about every similar survey available.

[WipeYourFeet]

This is very good and the perfect companion to Man Friday because, sadly, I think the Man Friday is being looked at as "oh look at those silly feminists getting their knickers in a knot"
And yes @DodoPatrol I too was a bit at the compromise statement