Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

[invisibleoldwoman]

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights?CMP=share_btn_fb

Funny I don't see any of the other signatories here to 'lap up the praise'. You've been rumbled and you know it.

Thank you.

It would be interesting to see how a letter from women would go.
“Further, could you imagine a letter from a group of women referring to male sexual fetishism as a motivating force for men to declare themselves to be women being published in the Graun? Because I can't.”

But principally, thank you.

Didn't Debbie sign it? Would be nice if she popped in. Hi Debbie if your reading!

Jayceedove have you asked Sweary?

Spontaneaous, I do get that you re angry with me and I am really not looking for that. If I did say anything on Angels that you and Sweary did not like I do genuinely apologise. Whether you believe me is up to you, but I have truthfully been trying to chart a path through this mess which is not easy at my age.

I have enough enemies out there now as I knew I would after today.

I certainly would prefer not to have more on here. But if so, then I can again only say I am slowly learning about something I knew nothing about.

I have never been a part of any activist group and have just g on with my lie quietly for a long time. Coming to grips with the trans activists and the feminist stance on these things in a few weeks is hard going.

But I have really been trying.

I no doubt did make mistakes and say things somewhere not well received and if I upset anyone by that I am truthfully sorry.

Actually when Shelia did something similar at the House of Commons when she referred to the parasitism of AGP, she was roundly denounced in some quarters as being unhelpful and offensive.

Yet, here we have a group of men, and 'special men' at that, saying the same thing and they get cookies.

Just like when Julia Long was castigated and WKUP apologised on her behalf for her 'hurtful comments', but MY gets praised and told how brave 'they'/'she' is.

Thank you for your courage.

Spontaneous okay.

I am not interested in praise. I only supported a statement. It is not a big deal and I have no intention of suggesting it is.

This is why finding a way out of this mess is going to be so hard if we always have to think the worst of each other.

I am trying not to do that but if you think ill of me then that's fine. You are entitled. You might have good reason.

Won't stop me trying to do the right thing from my perspective anyway. Even if I do mess up sometime.

And if you are reading Sweary I am sorry for whatever it was that I said.

I am aware of the issue with Sweary and Jaycee, but nonetheless, I'd like to thank all the signatories of that letter - because they will be listened to in a way that women won't (however rage-inducing that is, it's also sadly true, and frankly if it's the only thing that gets the other side of the story in front of the Guardian's readership, then I'll take that), and also because they will also be villified by the TRAs and we know all too well what that looks like, so to knowingly step into that situation is courageous.

Actually when Shelia did something similar at the House of Commons when she referred to the parasitism of AGP, she was roundly denounced in some quarters as being unhelpful and offensive.

Agree this is annoying. Equally those who signed the letter can't change that and have bravely said what needed to be said.

Re: AGP. Women (biological xx) talk about male violence, porn, etc all the time and no one actually listens. So yeah im 100% behind transwomen talking about it because when we women do we just get called transphobic and vilified...again. Transwomen here are the gateway for the discussion because patriarchy and misogyny suck.

While I understand it pisses some people off that men are listened to when women are not, I truly appreciate what the signatories of that letter have done. If nothing else, it may give some trans allies who have not thought much about the issues from the perspective of women and transexuals pause for thought. Plus I've come to think that the real transphobes are those appropriating the experiences of of those with gender dysphoria. I don't know the ins and outs of what happened with JayCee, but I appreciate the letter regardless of any peripheral disagreements.

Plus I've come to think that the real transphobes are those appropriating the experiences of of those with gender dysphoria.

Extreme genderists are amazingly effective cuckoos.

Women
Transexuals
Lesbians
Gay rights
What next?

Yup, if it's a straight choice between ideological purity versus winning the fight, I'll take winning any day.

(And actually I'm still at heart a live-and-let-live kind of person. I may privately find some of what other people get up to offensive, but offence in and of itself isn't enough to worry about - it's when people's behaviour impinges on my freedoms that I get pissed off.)

Fermats Seconded.

The real Jayceedove from one of Jayceedove's victims - Sweary Sweary is behind ManFriday, I know who gets my praise. I'm outta this thread, I've said my piece.

Jaycee - I remain appreciative that you are a signatory to that letter. Thank you for doing it.

However, I do think you need to acknowledge that you have not always behaved honourably with regard to this forum and stop being disingenuous about it. We all cock up from time to time. It's not the end of the world and we all move on. But it is infuriating for you to keep on with appeals to sympathy and female socialisation. I really thoroughly object to you doing that consistently on here. You behaved badly with regard to several FWR members and I wish you would simply acknowledge your responsibility for that. Then stop dominating threads with lots of posts trying to wriggle out of it because the people involved are upset by it all over again every time you do.

This is not intended to be argumentative. I just think it would be better if it were all done and dusted and that can only happen if you take responsibility.

Another thank you to those who put their heads above the parapet to this letter, as they'll attract a lot of flak from the TRA community for doing so.

!they will be listened to in a way women won't"
Well perhaps they will be listened to because they wrote the letter. Would anyone else like to write a reply?

TheUterati - I completely agree with your analysis. That said, I feel strongly that transsexuals organising together in a distinct lobby entirely separate from the identifarians and genderists is a positive development. Yes, they'll get the patriarchal hearing we wouldn't. Yes, that's bloody infuriating. But as a group with whom it would be possible to negotiate sensible policy grounded in material reality that would make good, enforceable and just law? I can see it as possible with such a group and it never, ever will be with the genderists.

^what langcleg said with bells on jayceedove can't keep churning this up sometimes we have to just take responsibility, Sweary was disappointed but she didn't say she collapsed melodramatic style over it, she's really put herself out there and it would be good for her to know people have her back.

“Well perhaps they will be listened to because they wrote the letter”

Indeed....

Thank you to everyone that signed that letter. It was extremely brave of you all.
💐

Certainly also massively appreciate Sweary's input. The ManFriday swimming pool protest was one of the main things that made me aware of the whole issue. I was blissfully /shamefully unaware previously

to bravery of MNetters!