Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

[invisibleoldwoman]

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights?CMP=share_btn_fb

No they're not.

Most are just misguidedly standing up for a group they have been told are the underdog and/or are just trying to muddle their way through the gender clusterfuck, however badly and however many other people's rights they trample on.

It's not just SW but it's a very small select group who 'quietly' pushed through the GRA, who were invited to contribute to the Yogyakarta Principles, who are the driving force behind the end of sex based protection for women and girls today.

If you want to know where this shit comes from, start with the people who were advocating for it 10+ years ago.

They are not the people who are misguided and they are not those muddling through, but that's who they are using to give an acceptable veneer and garner sympathy for their agenda.

Yes, they are. If they actively campaign to remove all sex segregated spaces dorxeomen and girls, yes, they are.

I disagree.

There is population-wide gaslighting going on and I don't believe the majority caught up in it are actually bad people. Many of us here started on the other side of the debate.

People are weak, misguided, easily led. All fair criticism. I prefer to save 'bad people' for those who have systematically used people who are weak, misguided, easily led to further their own agenda.

I respect your point of view. I don't know if I was worse: I was the person who thought it was 'niche' and simply the left eating itself. Perhaps a sense of guilt makes me more judgemental.

Just read the text of the change.org petition started by Lily Madigan. (Linked to upthread)

While that famous quote of Jenner’s that now she was a woman her biggest problem was what to wear each day (or whatever sexist cliche it was, can’t be bothered to look it up again) nor the reported anecdotes about Jenner laughing about wearing Jenner’s teenage female children’s underwear are really unsettling...

The reasons given by Madigan in the petition text for demanding that Jenner should have the right to speak be removed are tellingly authoritarian. This is the same no-platforming argument used against many gender critical women. Ie rests on the claim that politically diverse views can’t be spoken, heard, tolerated.

The given reasons for stopping Jenner from speaking include that ‘she votes the wrong’ way and:

’Many LGBTQ+ people openly dislike Caitlyn Jenner’

Reasons which kind of make me think ‘OK so what?’ and ‘OK so what?’.
What do they have to do with anything to do with the right to speak publicly?

I really don’t understand how (in a political setting especially,) ‘I DONT LIKE THEM’ is the same as ‘THEY MUST BE STOPPED FROM SPEAKING’.

Re: Diversity speech, Previous speakers were Riz Ahmed and Idris Elba. (This is 3rd year of the speech) Caitlyn Jenner arguably also has a high international profile, although achieved this before transitioning. Honestly I can see why they would prefer a different speaker, but ‘too right wing’ is a really rubbish argument and ironically not inclusive or accepting of diversity.

This is the same no-platforming argument used against many gender critical women.

I think there may well be a sea-change starting in how no-platforming etc is understood and viewed. The extent of this though is contested.

The government announcement was only last week:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sam-gyimah-crackdown-on-students-silencing-free-speech-x28jx85fc
"Mr Gyimah wants action to protect lawful free speech on campus and a single set of guidelines would be “a new chapter” for openness.
“A society in which people feel they have a legitimate right to stop someone expressing their views on campus simply because they are unfashionable or unpopular is rather chilling,” he said before the meeting.
“There is a risk that overzealous interpretation of a dizzying variety of rules is acting as a brake on legal free speech on campus"

recent discussions here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3233018-Freedom-of-Speech-A-statement-by-the-Chair-of-the-Universitys-Equality-Diversity-and-Inclusion-Group
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3240368-I-have-never-witnessed-anything-like-the-authoritarian-silencing-tendency-of-current-trans-activism
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238951-some-good-news
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3239267-Free-Speech-No-Platforming-at-Universities

There is population-wide gaslighting going on

The problem with this is that when the inevitable backlash comes, it will be worse and more intense as all the duped virtue signallers rush to disassociate themselves from ever having supported it. Nobody will want to say "Yes, I was on board with this" and so their denunciations will be extreme in the rush to distance themselves.

The transsexuals who signed the Guardian letter can see this eventuality - it's a shame the extremist TRAs can't and believe they will be able to rely forever on the virtue signallers and lefty dudebros.

hey ho.... and on we go. Those of us who signed the infamous letter are accused of many things, often by people who are driven by the monster that is Gender Dysphoria. They decide we are fools, misinformed, taken advantage of by T.E.R.Fs who have pulled wool over our eyes and are " pretending to be our friends", and so on.

And maybe that is true, time will tell, but speaking for myself I am no follower of any leader. I console myself that those of us who feel as we do have quite a lot of experience of all these issues, over a period of time, and are reasonably well educated and informed, and have perspective.

We have listened to the arguments, and have come down on the " no giving of GRCs quickly, no giving of them to people who are not able to demonstrate being serious about permanent changes to their gender, and have psychiatrist approval".

KayM2 - thank you for signing i hope the rebuttle is tolerable or better yet laughable. I'm another who would be classed under the trans umbrella as GNC...I can't say my thoughts on that because it'll prob be deleted.

I hope there is always space for you to say what you want and need to, live happily and never be a follower.

Debbie Hayton is quoted in Gaby Hinsliff article in The Guardian today. It is, I think, a very balanced article which includes a great deal of the wider context and worth reading and sharing.

(extract)
"Sitting in the Oxford audience was physics teacher Debbie Hayton, one of the few trans women to have spoken from a Woman’s Place’s platform. While she agrees the GRA is too bureaucratic, she prefers the security of having a formal diagnosis and surgery to self-identification. “As a trans person, I don’t want my rights or protections to be based on feelings, because people don’t believe it. They may tolerate it. But it takes away my credibility as a trans person.” As for all-women shortlists, Hayton says, “hell would freeze over before I’d go on one, because I was socialised as a boy and I have those advantages still”.

Such views aren’t necessarily popular among trans activists, and Hayton has been accused of being “self-hating”. Yet in a movement focused on giving everyone the freedom to define themselves as they choose, it seems odd to deny her the same leeway.

For Hayton, sex is a biological fact; she describes herself as “male, and I prefer people to relate to me as if I were female”. But in an ideal world, free of all stereotypes, what she would have liked is to present as a feminine man. “This is really difficult to explain but by asking to be treated by society in the same way that they would treat a woman, I feel more comfortable,” she says."

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/10/the-gender-recognition-act-is-controversial-can-a-path-to-common-ground-be-found

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244904-Finally-a-balanced-overview-article-in-the-Guardian?pg=1

Debbie Hayton always comes across very well, online and in writing. Plus, she's a physics teacher . And as far as I can see, Debbie campaigns for the sort of anti-discrimination that trans people really need - to avoid discrimination in the workplace and allow men to present as they wish.