Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

[invisibleoldwoman]

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights?CMP=share_btn_fb

I'm actually not sure they will be listened to much more on the basis of this one letter although I do acknowledge no group of feminists would have got that published in The Guardian.

GC Transsexuals have been derided as fringe and out of touch by the TG movement. I think it will take a lengthy campaign by them to get anyone to really start taking notice, especially the LGBT orgs.

But as a group with whom it would be possible to negotiate sensible policy grounded in material reality that would make good, enforceable and just law? I can see it as possible with such a group and it never, ever will be with the genderists

Indeed.

I don't know anything about any previous disagreements but I do know that I appreciate everyone who wrote and signed that letter.

I have thanked the writers of this letter. I have thank the writers of any other letters I know about.

I thank anybody and everybody who is willing to put their head above the parapet in any way. That can be letters, protests, interviews, attending meetings, talking to friends, Twitter, posting on here or just opening their minds and thinking about the issue. Or other things I've not thought of or mentioned.

It is scary out there. It's scary in here too. Right now it does take bravery to say anything, whether you're male, female or trans. And I thank you for doing that.

Thank you so much, everyone who made this letter possible and signed it!! It says something when the men I respect most right now are transsexual men. Thanks again!!

I disagree with most of mumsnet, as I think that transwomen should be able to identify as women.

But I think a woman who has undergone years of HRT and an SRS to transition is different to someone who has no intention of transitioning, so interesting that these distinctions are being made.

habobo do you think women and girls should have to share showers/changing rooms/overnight accommodation with people with penises who say the feel female? Or do you think they should have the right to choose not to?

I have no problem with transwoman feeling they identify as women. I just want to keep my sex-based rights and my own unique identity, language, laws, stats etc

I'm not sure - is this a scenario that actually happens?

Because on the other hand, I understand why transwomen would feel unsafe in all male environments - they have killed themselves in male prisons.

Thank you to everyone who signed the letter from me too. I appreciate how brave you are to raise your head above the parapet and the shitstorm you will unfortunately now have to deal with from the extreme TRAs.

Many times I've seen trans posters on here who disagreed with self id be asked to rally together and speak out. And I appreciate that you have done that.

And yes, it is frustrating that women's voices are ignored, but trans women may get listened to. But I'll take that. I'll accept their support and gladly if it means my daughter will grow up into a safer world.

Thank-you for writing that letter, I appreciate you sticking your heads above the parapet.

Sadly your voices have more weight than ours, it's not our fault and it's not your fault, It is eternally frustrating

Well I've been banging on for months about the need for transsexuals to find their own collective voice so I'm really pleased to see this letter and I admire the bravery of all signatories, whether they have used their RL name, an online name they care about, or have signed anonymously. I hope this is the start of a truly effective campaign.

This is not our campaign though. The reason your letter is powerful is because all the signatories are male.

This is a TS campaign, not an add-on to the fight for women & girls' rights. TS have their own dog in this race. We will disagree on loads of stuff. Nevertheless there will be areas we can form political alliances (as opposed to being 'allies'). We can only do that if we acknowledge our differences, then agree to table them so we can fight together on specific issues.

So I won't say thank you but I will say well done

Jaycee I don't know exactly what's gone on between you and sweary but I have also had a spat with you because you have talked about me behind my back. In my case you did it here on MN so it wasn't hard to find. You were given far greater leeway than any non-trans poster would have been given.

habobo unfortunately that is happening. I'm well overdue for bed so I'll just give one example - Girl Guides. Totally ignoring safeguarding too.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/26/guides-allows-boys-identify-female-shower-girls/

There was a telegraph letter about it not long ago from some very brave leaders, and others not closely connected, a few weeks ago.

This is just one of many examples.

Thought I'd pop in and see how things were. Thank you for those who have left messages of support. I've had a rough time this evening, drawing fire from both sides in this debate. I'm not doing this to be popular but it's heartening when people are positive, and many are.

for Debbie

Thanks for your part in the Debbie.

@DebbieInBirmingham Thank you!

I appreciate all who signed this letter and those who are putting themselves out there doing ManFriday/meetings/interviews/letters/posts in this tough situation. Well Done! and/or

I hugely appreciate this "heads above the parapet" by all those involved. And enormous respect from me too. Your voices have to be heard - even if ours are dismissed.

We're kind of 'in this together' and I'm proud of all of you for standing up and saying so. Thank you.

There was a telegraph letter about it not long ago from some very brave leaders, and others not closely connected, a few weeks ago.

Times, I thought? If women want to do a somewhat similar letter to the TW one, that might be a better bet for publication than the guardian.

Oh, and very good letter Debbie. I'm sorry you've been having a rough evening - which of course you knew would happen, but you didn't let that stop you.

LangCleg, Greymisty, spontaneous, Pencils and others. I have spent a couple of hours reading some of my old posts on Angels. And I can see one or two where it may seem as if I was playing one off against the other. That was not my conscious intention but as it seems it was viewed that way by a few of you then I will accept that maybe unconsciously it was and apologise.

I will PM Sweary, too.

Debbie, thank you from me too as what you did today was extraordinary.

I was attacked by a trans male to female in a women only youth hostel room years ago. It wasn't even allowed by the Youth Hostel Association then - but they chose a bed in the women's dormitory anyway. Punched me very hard and threw all my stuff out into the corridor because I turned the light on. I had just undressed in front of them (luckily modestly). Why wouldn't this kind of thing happen?

Looking forward to hearing you speak at the Basingstoke meeting @DebbieInBirmingham

Sorry to hear what happened to you @okdok - I hope you were able to it to the police.